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[2E] Protestant Lancea et Sanctum

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  • wyrdhamster
    started a topic [2E] Protestant Lancea et Sanctum

    [2E] Protestant Lancea et Sanctum

    Note: On start, I want to mark that I’m agnostic raised in Catholic society of Poland – if I misunderstood some nuances of Protestant religions, I apologize in advance. I really want to hear on differences between Catholic and Protestant takes on Christianity, beside ‘they do not follow the Pope’ and ‘every church is different’. Still, you were warned.

    Going in to Requiem setting - I read 2E corebook write-up of Sanctified and they seems much more like ‘vampiric Catholic Church’ than general ‘vampiric Christanity’ of 1E corebook. In 1E there were mention of Protestant or even possible Muslims Lancea members. As I plan to run Domain govern by Lancea et Sanctum (Prince) Archbishop that was large figure in Protestant church – I wonder how will Longinians from Protestant version of Christanity differ from Catholic ones? Or Protestants just cannot become Sanctified in 2E, on theological grounds? If yes, how much I need to hack basic 2E Lancea et Sanctum for my setting?

    In my example, modern Archbishop of Uppsala would be Abraham Angermannus, famous archbishop and ‘witch hunter’ for Swedish Lutherans, that would be Embraced by Daeva ‘temptress’ for Lancea et Sanctum in Gripsholm, at his death bed. Can Church Eternal be reconciled with Protestant diversion from orthodoxy and central government of church?

    Also, how is Sanctified stance on inner Christanity fighting? Angermannus was very hard on fighting with Catholics. I would assume that in his unlife he will be the same driven. Is it against LS stance on matter of other churches in same city?

  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    I'm going to put aside questions about which Protestant faiths you're asking about(Because [not] surprisingly, there are a lot of those) and go back to the fundamental problem-The Longinian Faith is not really Christian, at least in execution. Abrahamic, sure(shooting fucking broad as hell here), but the central doctines and practices of the Sanctified aren't informed by Christ or Christian makeup beyond mere mythological background-although certain early versions of the faith probably wrestled with the connection. Still, the Gospel of Jesus Possible-Christ of Nazareth is concerned with, if not always the salvation of mankind, then at least the asshole order to which souls are categorized, while the Testament of Longinus(the concept, not the text) is basically "Well now you're fucked. What do now?", which is important for processing how schisms form for the God-fearing vampire.

    For example(stupidly simplified history incoming), the whammies of The Black Plague and The Renaissance shook the foundations of Christianity well enough that when folks like Luther kicked in the door for questioning, a lot of doubts persisted from recent history that allowed for the conversation of the Reformation to be as extensive and varied as it was. But to the Longinians, that period of "God has forsaken us" didn't matter much-mankind got punished, and apparently it wasn't the end times. The Renaissance was just people complaining. On the other hand, a lot of the ideas about how authority was handled would certainly have trickled it's way down into the Unbound and Gallows Post, and even infected some of the Invictus who relied on the Lancea et Sanctum to provide some divine backing. Those ideas could circle back into the Sanctified structures, but by that time, things have moved past the Reformationist Era.

    While much more limited, to such a point that you could almost call it exclusively American, the Restorationist faiths from the early 1800's were more likely to shake the Longinian Faiths, with the direct challenge to the closed canons of faith-even vampires are open to the shock and wonder that comes at the idea that God still has more to say(helped along by things like the newly started Carthians and organized Circle). But that's another bag all together.

    By and large, though, Longinian Faith is mostly divided, not necessarily by beliefs or practices, but by aesthetics-while the Church has a steady enough center to survive a lot of things, the outer trappings and minor details certainly vary from place to place and time to time. So the Lancea et Sanctum may look like a newly rebelling Protestant church, complete with some of the languages of whatever flavor of religion you go with, but scratch down a little and you find the core of the faith more or less the same.

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  • ahather
    replied
    Hell, Church of England (CofE as it is oft referred) as a protestant church you have the high church which has some more major theological and scripture differences to Catholicism but at least from an external perspective looks very similar to Catholicism and is really the church created by henry the 8th going right no more pope for Britain I want to get a divorce, but still wanting all the pomp and ceremony of Catholicism, however you also have the low church which has the same theology and scripture as the high church but much much less pomp and ceremony, being more the puritanical end of the church, but you also get individual churches within the CofE that fill every point on that spectrum from high church pseudo Catholicism, to puritanical low church.

    and this is all the same church with the same national hierarchy

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  • Spencer from The Hills
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    I really want to hear on differences between Catholic and Protestant takes on Christianity, beside ‘they do not follow the Pope’ and ‘every church is different’. Still, you were warned
    Those are the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. Protestants have wider ranger of doctrines than some people realise. I expect that the differences between Catholicism and Lutheranism would be easier to list.

    Rereading the pages about the Lancea et Sanctum, I haven't seen much that suggests it is especially Catholic. The relationship between the Lancea et Sanctum and the "Church Universal" is discussed and Catholic literally means universal, but it could also mean universal in the sense that it covers all Christianity. Furthermore, the very first paragraph describes something that sounds a lot like Sola Fide to me. Not to mention that elsewhere in the corebook, there is an explicit example of more Protestant Spears, albeit with no details about their characterstic beliefs as I recall.

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  • SNESferatu
    replied
    Various Creeds were described in the Lancea book for 1E, and as far as Secrets of the Covenants suggests, they still exist in 2E. Among them was the Westminster Creed, the Anglican/Protestant inspired one. Its founder specifically created his own Creed to help the conversion of vampires who were Protestant in life, stripped excessive cerimonialism (even if most of the rites are there, to pick and choose as a domain says). There is less "fanfare" in the cerimonies, but most rites are still practiced, even if a little bare. So Midnight Mass is definitely shorter. Also, they're pretty into politics and cross-covenant membership. They were described in a line by Vidal in the Lancea chapter, and I don't think anything has changed. So, there, here's your answer. The (kind of) Protestant Lancea exists.

    Also, the Monachal Creed, the original, and thus the more traditional one, has Catholic trappings, but it's not Catholic: without a Pope to answer to it is kind of difficult to be Catholic. But that's just semantics.

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  • Diggs
    replied
    Despite a Catholic facade, the Lance isn't globally organized any better than the Circle. There is no vampire Pope to tell one city they are doing it wrong. As long as the local Sanctified play nice with the other Sanctified around the world, there should be no problems with infighting. I think it makes sense to stick to one local bastardization unless the situation is like it has been in Ireland in the past. I think the LS stance on unaffiliated churches would be to subtly undermine and encourage affiliated churches to convert.

    I doubt Angermannus would risk a Masquerade breach to mess with Catholics so he might play some games and be very unwelcoming to any Sanctified visitors that don't follow his Creed. I don't know much about Lutherans but the Church of Sweden, from a glance, doesn't seem that different from the Catholic church unless you are writing sermons. I wouldn't recommend that. I assume in Sweden the LS looks like the Church of Sweden and is tied to it as they're the mortal flock.

    I think Protestants could become Sanctified but they would probably have more doubts at the beginning, Christian agnostic perhaps. The general, but not uniform, case for Protestants that I believe Lutherans also follow despite having confession is acts of contrition are unnecessary. Basically, the problem Protestants would have has to do with vampires existing more than anything the LS believes. There is a play difference. The bishop can't use the line about someone needing to do something as penance. Do it for the LS or come up with an actual compelling reason.

    Less changes seem necessary than if it was American Protestants.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    I don't think different denominations of Christianity will have any real bearing on LeS. Remember that the Lance believe in a whole new gospel and are supposed to follow a set of rules that aren't part of any human denomination. As long as everyone believed in Jesus as the son of god so that Longinus could be cursed for his part in killing the guy, there should be no theological conflicts.
    The trappings and organisation does take a lot of cues from Catholicism specifically, but that's hardly theological differences. In your case the bishop Abraham might differ from most LeS bishops by choosing to live a lot more modestly, and he might either teach the local Kindred latin so that they can read the gospel of Longinus or try to find copies of it translated to Swedish.
    Last edited by Tessie; 07-16-2017, 07:33 AM. Reason: Spelling

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  • Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
    replied
    Thematically, you just have to change from gaudy bishops in gold masks in fantastic halls preaching floridly about punishment, to deadly men in dark robes in serious black rooms, preaching earnestly about punishment. Certain Evangelist style churches transfer styles into undeath well, if you look at American protestantism. I'm not sure about how well they fit in theology, but the assumption is that they can transfer pretty well: even if the Lancea theology is based more on Catholicism, they don't have any major red flags that conflict with Protestantism. The difference is more of approach to faith than it is anything else.

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