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[2E] Creeds in Lancea Sanctum

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  • [2E] Creeds in Lancea Sanctum

    Reading 1E Lancea Sanctum Covenant book I wonder, with all changes to Sanctified – Are really other Creeds are still a thing inside Lancea in 2E Requiem? To those not having LS book – Creed is variant on the main dogma of Church Eternal, like one of Christianity denominations. Of course Creeds Manochal ( Catholic-like vampires, orthodoxy ), Westminster ( Protestant-like ) and Tollison ( American Protestant - like) are still present as they are. But Minor Creeds like Iblic ( Muslim-like ) or Dammitic ( Jews-like ) or Exotheists ( modernists ) are still a thing? Especially with Dark Eras Companion chapter Soulless and Dead, where there is introduced Islamic Covenant Al-Hamasoun ( that I suspect will be fully written in 1001 Nights in Dark Eras 2 ), being basically ‘Iblis Covenant’.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 07-18-2017, 12:15 AM.


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  • #2
    Yes, unless something in 2e specifically contradicts 1e then whatever was in 1e is still valid. Mechanics may not work, but everything else does, as well as it ever did. Lack of support for anything outside of the Manochal Creed in 2e does not mean the Sanctified have changed. Basically, everything in 2e fits the Manochal Creed unless it is heretical which itself should indicate that the LS has multiple Creeds still. If I remember correctly, the Iblic Creed was originally a covenant that lost power after the Islamic Golden Age to the point that they decided to just join the Sanctified to avoid being crushed by the other covenants. OPP likes to present more options in hope that something will be suitable. Every 1e Creed is valid, but it is entirely your choice to keep them or not.

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    • #3
      I would argue that Iblic SHOULDN'T be still considered valid, because it doesn't realistically allow for Muslims to maintain a Muslim identity in the sense that Christians maintain a Christian identity in the L&S. I'll link my previous post on the matter here, along with an outline of what a proper Muslim faith-covenant COULD look like.

      Originally posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
      This was the vague Muslim outline I had written before, and it's explanation. It needs some serious reworking, and I find it still slightly too close to the LeS for my current tastes, but for consideration.

      First of all, I want to stress the reasons for why this new Covenant is necessary.
      The Faith of Longinus requires Muslims (and Jews, but I’m mostly concerned with Muslims here) to deny certain base Muslim beliefs. Primarily, it requires them to deny that Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets. Seal of the Prophets has a dual meaning, both of which must be respected. Firstly, it means that his revelations abrogate all previous revelations. Secondly, it means that his revelations are the final revelations, and cannot be abrogated (except internally).
      The Faith of Longinus requires a Muslim to believe that the revelations of Longinus are still relevant after Muhammad’s revelations, and thus have not been abrogated. This requires a Muslim to cease to believe in one of the central statements of Islam, that Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets, and thus for a Muslim to become a Longinan, they first have to cease to be a Muslim.
      A Muslim covenant has to address the vampiric condition from a Muslim standpoint. It has to emerge naturally from Muslim thought. It thus cannot be based on any text or scripture from before Muhammad. Nor can it be based on any text or scripture from after Muhammad, as Muhammad was the last of Prophets, and no revelation can come after him. Thus, the Covenant has to be based in a revelation of Muhammad.
      Yet how to reconcile this without dramatically changing the story of Muhammad? When the Qur’an was compiled, a few decades after the death of Muhammad, they had a system to ensure that no false verse was added. People had committed verses to memory, or written down passages, often on cattle shoulder-blades. A certain number of people had to corroborate a verse for it to be added. As the story goes, the Caliph himself remembered a verse, yet because it could not be corroborated, it was not added, despite his authority. What if verses were discovered that could not be corroborated at the time, but seemed to refer to the vampiric condition?
      A second, since discredited theory, mostly held by sceptical Western scholars refusing to believe the traditional account due to the need at the time to discredit Muslim histories, held that Islam was invented as a religion closer to Mesopotamia and the area known as al-Jazira, to address a new need for a belief system to justify a new empire, in a land where many religions mixed and debated. While I think this theory is a load of bumpkis, I do think that parts of it can be used for the history of the new covenant. Here follows a quick history of the Covenant.




      On the most part, the Kindred of the Middle East did not convert to Islam. They were ancient beings, some predating even Christianity, many holding to pagan faiths. Up until the 9th and 10th centuries, Muslim rule was, in general, tolerant of other monotheistic faiths, and even polytheists could publically claim to be Muslims and practice in secret. Most of the Kindred took this route. What converts or embraces there were were rare enough that there was no need for a Covenant, and Muslim vampires worked out what it meant to be a Muslim vampire on their own individual terms.
      In the 10th century, two trends converged. The more tolerant era of Muslim governance came to an end, requiring actual and meaningful conversion, and enough Muslims were being embraced that the need for a Muslim covenant arose. A new set of sources were unearthed, rejected verses written in vitae-infused blood on human shoulder-blades, (since long lost) that purported to contain passages of the Qur’an that were not accepted due to lack of corroboration, yet they clearly seemed to refer to the vampiric condition.
      The verses, known collectively as “Ayat al-Kasuuf” or Verses of the Eclipse for the motifs of eclipses that run through them, speak of a people, “A brotherhood hidden amongst you”. “Never will the light’s touch reach them / unless I remove the lights.” They are the “hidden shield against that which would harm you / against which I have given you your only recourse.” The verses also make reference to a “tax” that the brotherhood will place upon the people, and that the people will fear them and not know them for what they are.
      From lines in these verses, the Covenant drew it’s name. They are normally known as “al-Dara’ al-Khafi”, the Hidden Shield, but their followers are called “Ikhwan al-Makhfiun”, the Hidden Brothers, or just “Al-Makhfiun”, The Hidden, for short. They call all vampires “Ahl al-Kasuuf”, the People of the Eclipse.
      They believe their purpose is to protect people against the Shaitan, the evil Genies who follow Iblis, the Devil. The Shaitan are incorporeal Genies who seek to tempt faithful Muslims from the straight path. Unlike the Lance, who seek to become monsters in order to keep others in line, the Hidden Shield first seeks to balance themselves against the Beast before turning their efforts outwards, in line with a verse that says “Only those who have defeated the Shaitain (of the self/inside/interior/already) can fight them (successfully/outside/made flesh)” (The verse sometimes varies, this is one of the most debated lines in the Covenant).
      There are various factions of the Hidden Shield that hold various beliefs, in part because the texts that make up the Verses of the Eclipse are not wholly agreed upon. Most agree that one must follow the Qur’an unless the Ayat al-Kasuuf differs from the Qur’an, but some say that the Ayat al-Kasuuf overrides the entire Qur’an, because just as the Qur’an was directed towards mortals and Jinn so the Ayat al-Kasuuf were directed towards the Kindred. The latter group is a tiny minority, however.
      The larger division is based on a question of purpose. It is accepted in the Covenant that vampires exist to protect mortals, and that in return they draw a tax of blood, yet it is debated exactly what they protect mortals FROM. Some say that they fight only supernatural threats. Some say that they fight only other vampires outside of the Covenant, draugr and others who prey on humans in unacceptable ways. Some say that they must protect mortals from other mortal groups who seek to harm society. A handful say that they must protect individual mortals from themselves! A second question asks WHO do they protect? Do they protect all mortals, or just Muslims? Do they protect only pious Muslims? A third question asks WHO is ALLOWED to protect? Must the Makhfiun completely overcome their own beast to join the good fight? Are they allowed to be imperfect monsters? Or, as a few say, is it allowable to USE the beast in order to better protect the people...

      WHAT CAPABILITIES DO I GIVE THEM?
      I’m thinking a set of unique Devotions based on the more common Disciplines, possibly combined with ritualistic prayer? I need to look over the rules again, and maybe get my hands on Secrets of the Covenants. So the sorcery of the covenant must be a subtle thing, something that is internal to the vampire not external that they invoke, something subtle not flashy, something meant to strengthen the self not awe others.

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      • #4
        Only high humanity rated vampires could "realistically" maintain a Christian identity post-embrace. Anyone claiming otherwise is simply deluding themselves to justify wrongdoing and practitioners of every single religion in existence does that. So yes, any of those creeds are still valid, just make sure you have your manufactured lie to explain major deviations why your Amish edition of the Lancea et Sanctum attends elysium in the first place, or which rabbinical teachings exempt your Jewish vampires from the prohibitions about eating blood or why your Muslim vampires suddenly permit females in leadership roles.
        Last edited by tsusasi; 07-17-2017, 10:22 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by tsusasi View Post
          ...why your Muslim vampires suddenly permit females in leadership roles.
          Seriously? Why does this point only ever seem to get brought up with Muslims? Female Anglican Bishop debates? Anyone? Matrilineal tracing of the Shi'ite Imamates through Fatimah instead of the Prophet Muhammad's sons?

          EDIT: To be clear, all religions change and evolve over time. There were and are similar restrictions in all Abrahamic faiths and more generally in most religions. Patriarchy is not something unique to Islam. It has also been subverted in various ways throughout history and this is a problem that various real Muslims around the world are working to solve, just as people of all faiths are working towards gender equality.
          Last edited by Second Chances; 07-17-2017, 12:04 PM.


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          • #6
            The Lancea et Sanctum isn't a Christian religion. It's just the kind of religion that people who were Christian in life find easy to adapt to because it offers similar structure and metaphysics.

            As for Creeds, they probably still exist in the current edition, but we've ditched the OOC idea from 1e that all religions that worship one God need to be branches of the L+S.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Rose Bailey View Post
              As for Creeds, they probably still exist in the current edition, but we've ditched the OOC idea from 1e that all religions that worship one God need to be branches of the L+S.
              Thank you!


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              • #8
                Originally posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
                I'll link my previous post on the matter here, along with an outline of what a proper Muslim faith-covenant COULD look like.
                I think you're overlooking Theban Sorcery. Your scenario basically requires the Lancea elders in the Arab empire to just one day decide to pack up their incredibly powerful blood magic. That's not going to happen.

                I mean your concept already hints at the solution, I mean, someone just happens to find some lost quran verses, that's very convenient. Hypothetically, you can have God justify anything you want.

                I mean, that already seems to be the point of the non-Christian creeds. They want access to the Theban Sorcery, so they edit the Lancea beliefs to fit near enough their own mortal beliefs, (to the point that Jesus isn't even a manditory part of the story).

                That can appear to prioritise Christianity, until you realise that the Longinus story is already pretty implausible. It's almost like someone made it up to justify their weird blood magic that they dug up. Almost.


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                • #9
                  You could go the other way. The blood magic is dug up, it could be claimed to be sent there by Allah or one of his prophets. Caches of Theban sorcery are still found, new are being guided to the hands of the faithful. It wasn't really theirs to begin with, anyways.

                  I expect we'll see a more appropriate-for-the-culture covenant, perhaps many, in the Islamic Dark Era.
                  Last edited by nofather; 07-17-2017, 01:30 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Yeah, if the arguement is that you have to be part of the Lancea to access Theban Sorcery (or even be monotheistic), the Bak-Ra will probably want to have a word with you.


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                    • #11
                      Yes, Lancea Elders would to a large part remain Christian, and even those who convert would retain their Miracles, and perhaps even teach them to new disciples. This wouldn't be until, as I wrote, several centuries after Islam dominated the Middle East politically; for quite some time, Islam was a politically powerful minority ruling over Christian and Zoroastrian minorities, and the vampire population would have been even slower to convert than the populace, for several reasons.

                      So, as I see it, any Muslim faith-covenant would emerge dominated by young monsters and the VERY rare converted elder. Once the covenant is established as a player that can rival the previous covenants, newly embraced Muslims have little reason to convert to Longianism for power anymore, and so the covenant would quickly outgrow the others, and you would see a spate of false-conversions as the established movers-and-players move to where the power is.

                      So the Lancea et Sanctum are now peripheral, and the Makhfiun are dominant in the region. Why would the Makhfiun disband into the Sanctum? Is the international pressure of the Sanctum so large in the 18th and 19th centuries that the vast societies of Muslim vampires have no choice but to submit to the handful of preachers that come their way? Especially when European kindred don't have as large a tech advantage over other Kindred as their mortal counterparts did, guns being comparatively useless.

                      So no, my scenario doesn't ignore blood sorcery, blood sorcery simply isn't as big an advantage as you think it is. Other covenants all have their own advantages, even if those advantages aren't supernatural, that stop blood sorcery being the be-all-end-all of political power. Elders wouldn't stop using their powers, but they'd be slowly out-numbered until remaining in the Sanctum is to accept political irrelevancy. And there's not much reason for Khafiun Kindred to meld into the Sanctum if their own covenant gives it's own advantages, just as there's no reason for the Invictus to simply meld into the Sanctified.

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                      • #12
                        The Iblic, Dammitic and Exotheists were all mentioned in Secrets of the Covenant in passing. Vidal really doesn't like them. There's also a Byzantine Creed that I didn't recognize from before, is it new? Other than the names, nothing else is known about them in 2E, so they could have shifted a bit in focus, or just as much as you want them before (and if) they get updated to 2E.


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                        • #13
                          You could go the other way. The blood magic is dug up, it could be claimed to be sent there by Allah or one of his prophets. Caches of Theban sorcery are still found, new are being guided to the hands of the faithful. It wasn't really theirs to begin with, anyways.
                          Presumably that'd be what they do now. However, the point I'm making is about the longer term historical development of the convenant.

                          Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll seemed to be making the point that Islam and the LeS are incompatible. My point is that that dissonance is a problem for bringing in new members, however it's not as insurmountable as they're saying, Further, there are good reasons for gradually reforming the LeS over starting over with a completely new covnenant, ie. access to Theban Sorcery.

                          Originally posted by Second Chances View Post
                          Yeah, if the arguement is that you have to be part of the Lancea to access Theban Sorcery (or even be monotheistic), the Bak-Ra will probably want to have a word with you.
                          I'm not making an absolute statement there, just that the LeS does broadly control knowledge on Theban Sorcery. You could go to Egypt and dig up some Theban rituals yourself... or you could join your local church.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Michael View Post

                            Presumably that'd be what they do now. However, the point I'm making is about the longer term historical development of the convenant.

                            Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll seemed to be making the point that Islam and the LeS are incompatible. My point is that that dissonance is a problem for bringing in new members, however it's not as insurmountable as they're saying, Further, there are good reasons for gradually reforming the LeS over starting over with a completely new covnenant, ie. access to Theban Sorcery.
                            I think that Iblic Creed can be semi-popular in Western domains where there is already large tradition of Christian-like Creeds ( Manochal, Westminister and Tollison), but there is small and rising Muslim minority. It's much easier to say 'Hey, we also believe in Longinus in our way - let us be! ' than ' We are hungry monsters of desert that come to you to test on yours Five Pillars' - When you come to other country, it's much easier to start faction from established Church ( Lancea Sanctum) than to spread your own different homeland cultures. With LS being Abrahamic religion, but not truly Christian - it's much easier to swallow for both sides.
                            Last edited by wyrdhamster; 07-18-2017, 12:17 AM.


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                            • #15
                              About above - If you would were to write Iblic Creed, how would it look? This is quote for Catholic-like Monachal Creed - Where Monachal and Iblic were diffrent?

                              Originally posted by Lancea Sanctum, p. 59
                              THE MONACHAL CREED
                              I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of Heaven and Earth.

                              I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, who was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary to redeem Man from Sinthrough his death and resurrection.

                              I believe that Longinus, by piercing the Savior’s side as he hung from the Cross, did reveal the
                              divinity of Christ through fulfillment of the prophecies and that, while Longinus was rightly Damned for his blasphemy, his damnation was itself part of God’s Holy Plan.

                              I believe that those so Damned are the agents of God’s will, chosen to receive the Embrace that we may test the faithful and reveal the divinity within each of them.

                              I believe that for my sins I am damned to Hell and yet through damnation I may find my purpose in God’s Holy Plan.
                              I suspect Iblic Creed would be based much more on Five Pillars of Islam based in construction.
                              Last edited by wyrdhamster; 07-18-2017, 12:14 AM.


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