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Half-Damned - what do we know?

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  • Originally posted by Vitalis View Post

    What I am hoping for is that the developers, writers and editors will come on here and see the errata
    Definitely happening.

    Originally posted by Vitalis View Post
    and flaws.
    If we're talking about the issues with tone and how this feels like a 1E or even CWoD book at times, I'm not holding my breath. At the end of the day, fixing these issues would be even more of a massive rewrite than fixing Beast was, and that itself brought a whole host of issues.

    I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to go that route with a supplement.

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    • Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
      Definitely happening.

      If we're talking about the issues with tone and how this feels like a 1E or even CWoD book at times, I'm not holding my breath. At the end of the day, fixing these issues would be even more of a massive rewrite than fixing Beast was, and that itself brought a whole host of issues.

      I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to go that route with a supplement.
      Boy I sure hope they see. This product seems rushed.

      And to the second point, it would not take that much work to spend some quality time with the document and think about the tone, the holes and questions raised by the material yet unanswered. Not as much as obtaining new text and new art would. This is also not a main splat-book; what we have now is a supplement's advance PDF that needs some love. I hope it gets that love.

      --Khanwulf

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      • Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post

        Boy I sure hope they see. This product seems rushed.

        And to the second point, it would not take that much work to spend some quality time with the document and think about the tone, the holes and questions raised by the material yet unanswered. Not as much as obtaining new text and new art would. This is also not a main splat-book; what we have now is a supplement's advance PDF that needs some love. I hope it gets that love.

        --Khanwulf

        Honestly this forum is already doing a lot of the work for them on it...

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        • Originally posted by Vitalis View Post
          Honestly this forum is already doing a lot of the work for them on it...
          Hounestly, that’s not really true. Certainly the problems are being pointed out, but very few people are giving solutions and even then, writing is hard and writing out the bad parts needs effort and thought.

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          • Originally posted by SdeSpencer View Post

            Hounestly, that’s not really true. Certainly the problems are being pointed out, but very few people are giving solutions and even then, writing is hard and writing out the bad parts needs effort and thought.
            First step to fixing any problem is identifying the problem. Or Pointing out the problems. The errata thread is pages long of people who aren't getting paid identifying errors that need to be fixed.

            As for your, "writing is hard" statement. The people who write these are professional writers. Any good professional writer shouldn't think it's too hard to overcome. Just like after having a teacher go through your essays and scribbling all sorts of corrections and pointing out parts that make no sense, it's easy enough to fix it after that. The writer already has the draft done, the mistakes pointed out, the goal, the purpose and Changing bits here and there, so it's coherent should be the easiest part of all. Granted. I can't speak for everyone, but I have taken a goodly amount of writing courses and taught a few, so this opinion is based on that and I am aware that everyone is different.

            I did not say all of the work. I am going to stick firm to my opinion that finding the mistakes is harder than fixing them.

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            • Hi, Danielle the developer here:
              A few notes on the tone of the book and the ghoul chapter in particular and the Clan Imposter Merit:

              The theme of this whole book was "messy relationships." All the half-damned we see have complicated and messy relationships with vampires and each other. Dhampir were pure antagonists in 1e, hunting and murdering their vampire parents. In 2e we changed them to reflect that they may not hate or want to kill their parents, but being raised by vampires is likely to cause a lot of emotional baggage. But, that doesn't make them hate them, its just complicated. For revenants, they revere vampires. Those guys have the best life, and they even want to pretend to be them. Their relationships are also hard because they are trying to prove themselves to the All Night Society while skirting along its edges. Ghouls (which I get into much greater detail below) are addicts living two lives. Balancing both those lives are complicated and messy, and really it's hard to keep your normal life when your vampire life is just so much cooler.


              Let's address the Clan Imposter Merit. When we were coming up with the ability for Revenants to pretend to be full vampires, we realized that these guys were going to be playing a long game. While yes, the Lonely Curse doesn't show up until the Nosferatu's Humanity drops to 6, as soon as that happens, the gig is up. Also, just because the mechanical penalty doesn't apply to Touchstones or Vampires doesn't mean that these people don't see the curse, it just means they ignore it for social reasons. Vampires aren't blind to a Nosferatu's weirdness, they just don't care as much as humans do. But they would certainly wonder why that person telling everyone they were a Nosferatu didn't have the same weirdness going on that other Nosferatu have. Does that make more sense? Also, I'm not opposed to making a slight change to reflect that it might just be harder or dangerous to impersonate a Nosferatu.

              As for the ghoul chapter, I'd like to share some thoughts that went into writing that chapter. When writing the outline for the chapter, I wanted the writers to consider the complicated relationships that go into being blood bound to someone, and living as their servant. I wanted to touch on the personal horror of addiction and what kinds of problems addiction (blood) and the feelings of overwhelming love (viniculum) can have on a person. Ghouls are people who do whatever they can for a fix, and love the person they are getting their fix from, even as they maybe resent the fact that they have the fix in the first place and also love the power that comes with it. It's very complicated and messy. This shadows every other relationship they have, and I felt like it wouldn't be doing the ghouls any justice if we didn't cover all those messy aspects. And Requiem is all about the messy personal relationships in our character's lives. While we do have a couple of sections on how those kinds of relationships can look like abuse, we also spend a great deal of time talking about how the ghoul's life is more complicated than that. Heck, there's even a sidebar about not really bringing the abuse stuff into game.

              Originally posted by Tessie View Post
              A third of the book is dedicated to ghouls, but unless you want to expand on the ghoul appendix in the core book it's not really useful.

              This is from another thread, but honestly it's a true assessment. We took a lot of the story seeds and ideas for the ghoul appendix in the 2e book and expanded on them as themes for this chapter. So if you're looking for an expansion of that appendix, this is really that.


              Danielle Lauzon, Requiem Developer, Storypath Guru, freelance writer

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              • I seriously doubt we're going to get any major rewrites. The only time that has happened was with BtP when we got a preview PDF. This is the advanced PDF after going through art direction and layouts. Even a single line more or less can get the entire layout to shift from that point forward, requiring whole new layout and indexing phases before the PDF can go to print. That's why the "errata" version almost exclusively contains grammatical and spelling fixes along with a few minor rules/fluff fixes that are limited to a single sentence.

                I get why OP does this, but I still hate the model. Especially since OP doesn't do erratas after the book has gone to print that could potentially fix a lot of inconsistencies and unexplained rules. I don't expect them to update in the actual books since you can't update already sold physical copies, but they won't even do them as separate free downloads. Any erratas for 2e you've seen are the results of the writers spending their unpaid, free time.


                All in all this (by which I mean Half-Damned; not necessarily the business practices) makes me dread Spilled Blood. Lost clans and alternate bloodlines? That'd be the most hyped VtR supplement for me, but with the mostly anticlimactic Thousand Years of Night, and the mess that is Half-Damned I'm really worried they're going to screw up what could easily be my most favourite VtR book.
                I really, really hope any of the devs sees this message and rethinks their development process. VtR core is a really solid book, and if Spilled Blood can hold the same level of quality I'd be extremely grateful.

                Rant over for me. Many other people has also stated their opinions about Half-Damned, and I don't want it to become a witch hunt rather than a statement of my opinion, so I probably won't write much more about this topic.


                Edit: I didn't see Danielle's post until after posting this one. This post is not a direct reply to that post. The first part is a reply to the chances of getting substantial rewrite, and the second are my own general opinions.
                Last edited by Tessie; 12-05-2017, 09:44 PM.


                Bloodline: The Stygians
                Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

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                • I for one really loved the book. It did everything I wanted it to. The ghouls chapter in particular was fantastic, so kudos to your writers as well as yourself.

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                  • Glad to see someone likes it, I'm waiting for the physical copy before buying it so hopefully by the time that comes out I'll be able to get balanced feedback on it.

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                    • While VtR hasn't been at the top of Chronicles game's I've followed. It strikes me that characterizing any messy power dynamics in Vampire the Requiem as "Just like Vampire the Masquerade." as making a lazy argument.


                      “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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                      • Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                        I get why OP does this, but I still hate the model. Especially since OP doesn't do erratas after the book has gone to print that could potentially fix a lot of inconsistencies and unexplained rules. I don't expect them to update in the actual books since you can't update already sold physical copies, but they won't even do them as separate free downloads. Any erratas for 2e you've seen are the results of the writers spending their unpaid, free time.
                        Question: do any other of the current TRPG companies do this?

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                        • Originally posted by TyrannicalRabbit View Post
                          While VtR hasn't been at the top of Chronicles game's I've followed. It strikes me that characterizing any messy power dynamics in Vampire the Requiem as "Just like Vampire the Masquerade." as making a lazy argument.

                          Who's making that argument?
                          Last edited by Poseur; 12-05-2017, 07:50 PM.

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                          • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                            Question: do any other of the current TRPG companies do this?
                            Wizards of the Coast, Fantasy Flight, Steve Jackson Games, and Chaosium. They're all certainly bigger than The Onyx Path (at least the former two, don't know too much about the latter tbh), but even if they weren't doing erratas I'd still find it a bad practice. Everyone jumping off a cliff doesn't make jumping off a cliff a good idea.


                            Bloodline: The Stygians
                            Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

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                            • Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                              Wizards of the Coast, Fantasy Flight, Steve Jackson Games, and Chaosium. They're all certainly bigger than The Onyx Path (at least the former two, don't know too much about the latter tbh), but even if they weren't doing erratas I'd still find it a bad practice. Everyone jumping off a cliff doesn't make jumping off a cliff a good idea.
                              Honestly this is one of those things that's hard to really discuss without knowing the full details on the hows and whys OPP runs the way they do in comparison to other TRPG companies. And even then, they might not even be at liberty to say why they do things the way they do for legal reasons. For all we know, there could be a perfectly logical reason why OPP runs things the way they are in consideration for whatever limitations they have on themselves.

                              (I should also remind that WotC is a weird case considering that they apparently still don't believe in making official PDFs for current edition D&D books available and are still mostly reliant on physical releases so...eh)

                              Even then, we do have the pitfall of how people feel that they shouldn't need that extra errata document in the first place. That they would rather it already be printed in the book to begin with...which means waiting on 2nd printings, 3rd printings, etc. And since no one knows when those other releases are coming out it can be still a helluva wait.

                              Besides, it could be way worse. It could be how Catalyst Game Labs handles errata for Shadowrun...

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                              • Originally posted by impernious View Post
                                Hi, Danielle the developer here:
                                Hi Danielle - I think it's pretty cool that you've jumped in here to provide your insights. Despite the criticisms, I would like to reiterate that I do really like what you & the writers have produced here. These Dhampir are absolutely a huge step up from the version in Night Horrors and I'll be incorporating at least one into my campaigns within the next couple of weeks.

                                More than specific issues (such as Clan Impostor) I think the main disappointment experienced by myself and a handful of others is the general tone with which the book seems to treat vampires and how much it differs from the way they are presented in the 2E core. Half-Damned seems to refocus on vampires as abusive monsters incapable of feeling which was an angle that was very much lessened with Blood & Smoke.

                                This focus (which seems more fitting with first edition), coupled with the sprinkling of terminology from a different game altogether (CWoD) leads to a total picture that feels, to some people, like something that's not really written for the new edition.

                                Is this something you can speak to? Is the lens we're seeing vampires through a result of viewing them through the eyes of the Half-Damned themselves? Is it an intentional thematic departure? An accident? Something else entirely?

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