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  • Vampires and the Stun Tag

    I hope this is the right place to address this question, but seeing as how my problem is Kindred specific I'll put it here. I know that there has been a fair amount of confusion about how stun is applied as an effect between books in 2nd Edition nWoD going from a doubling of equipment bonus to damage, to a reduction in target successes (by body size) to attain the stun, and back, but I've run into an interesting situation with a game in which I am a player. My character - a confederate sanctified gangrel - is a shootist. He can go claws and savagery, but being a solider he prefers to use the tools and training of a lifetime, and in combat has such skills and training to make shooting someone in the head worthwhile. It's also a useful tactic for aiding other players in group combats if he stuns the target and then others can beat it down.

    This is doubly true in a game with Strix!

    However, the ST has made the claim that vampires can reflexively spend blood to end the stunned tilt regardless of the source. If this were a house rule I would abide it just fine, but he claims this is an official position either from errata or the community at large on 'a forum', but he has neither the time nor inclination to provide me with the bona fides. Does anyone know about this supposed ruling and where I can find it if it even exists? I just want to know so I can draw it up at moment's notice or if it has any permutations for sources of lethal or aggravated damage (like tracer rounds) I have yet to try.



    That guy you've never heard of.

  • #2
    No, vampires can be stunned. They can't undo it by a blood point. However arguments can be made for vampires not being able to be stunned, as a house rule.
    All people can end the stunned tilt by spending a willpower point on their turn, but takes a -3 penalty to their action. Reasonably a vampire that heals the damage from the stunning attack, would also loose the tilt. Pepper sprey in the eyes though, that should be healable with a single vitea, though to it being a poison that could be cleansed.

    The strix should probably not be susceptible to stunned , whenever possessing someone(thing) or not. It seems at least to me to go against the never tired, never knocked out creep that are the strix.

    To my knowledge, there is no consensus about this on the forum. It is not answered by a dev as far as i know, and it is not in the errata or faq.

    If your ST says something is a rule and doesn't want to show it, your ST is just a douche. If it was a house rule, sure one thing if everyone was on board with that, but calling for a consensus or official rule and not showing it when asked; dick-move.

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    • #3
      Yeah, I'm not aware of any such rule in an official source. It's not an unreasonable house rule, but as far as I know it is a house rule.


      Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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      • #4
        Vampires can spend blood reflexively to heal damage. If the attendant damage that causes a tilt is healed, the tilt is gone. It's not a house rule. What is ambiguous in the rules is if a tilt requires the attendant damage to be healed "in its entirety", if "a single point of the damage is healed" or if "just enough damage is healed to put it under the threshold" is sufficient to clear the tilt.

        If your ST has informed you that you aren't going to be able to reliably spam stuns in order to effortlessly murder vampires then it's pretty obvious he is going with the interpretation that a single point of healing is sufficient for a vampire to clear a stun. I wouldn't throw a temper tantrum about it because that means a Strix can't spam their Screech effect to effortlessly kill you either.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Poseur View Post
          Reasonably a vampire that heals the damage from the stunning attack, would also loose the tilt.
          Stunned is the only personal Tilt that doesn't go away when healed. It's actually all the others that specify that they are removed when the damage is healed.
          There are some who are capable of removing tilts, but even in those cases they might not be able to do anything about Stunned since removing Tilts generally requires an action (such as Pattern Restoration and Gift activations) and you can't take those actions until Stunned has already passed. Either way vampires have no innate Tilt-removing powers.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by tsusasi View Post
            What is ambiguous in the rules is if a tilt requires the attendant damage to be healed "in its entirety", if "a single point of the damage is healed" or if "just enough damage is healed to put it under the threshold" is sufficient to clear the tilt.
            The VtR core book just says that you need to heal the damage (natural interpretation would still be all the damage dealt in the attack, imo) for the Tilts that can be healed, but Mage actually describes how to bookkeep Tilts and you need to heal all damage inflicted when you got the Tilt. Specifically you need to heal the leftmost box you filled in when you got the Tilt but since you can only heal from right to left it's pretty obvious that you need to heal all damage.
            Last edited by Tessie; 08-11-2017, 10:51 AM.


            Bloodline: The Stygians
            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Tessie View Post

              Stunned is the only personal Tilt that doesn't go away when healed. It's actually all the others that specify that they are removed when the damage is healed.
              There are some who are capable of removing tilts, but even in those cases they might not be able to do anything about Stunned since removing Tilts generally requires an action (such as Pattern Restoration and Gift activations) and you can't take those actions until Stunned has already passed. Either way vampires have no innate Tilt-removing powers.
              Gifts or devotions that ignore or "heal" tilts are reflexive, exactly so they aren't useless.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                Stunned is the only personal Tilt that doesn't go away when healed. It's actually all the others that specify that they are removed when the damage is healed.
                There are some who are capable of removing tilts, but even in those cases they might not be able to do anything about Stunned since removing Tilts generally requires an action (such as Pattern Restoration and Gift activations) and you can't take those actions until Stunned has already passed. Either way vampires have no innate Tilt-removing powers.

                As i said, reasonable. It's reasonable that the Stunned tilt goes away if the damage that made it heals. But given that the Tilt only lasts for a turn and normal people don't heal damage on a turn it could just be a slight oversight. Pattern restoration isn't a vampires heal ability, because vampires heal reflexively, same but different with werewolves. But yes, by RAW this is missing. However, overall, it doesn't make sense you have a tilt when the damage is gone.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Malus View Post

                  Gifts or devotions that ignore or "heal" tilts are reflexive, exactly so they aren't useless.
                  Essentially that's house ruling a free Power for all vampires. Question: Which devotion allows healing tilts reflexively? I ask because citing it may help RuneKnight3 demonstrate his point in an open fair dialogue with the ST between games because Devotions are vampire specific example of the rules we are talking about.
                  Last edited by Pale_Crusader; 08-11-2017, 03:25 PM.


                  “Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.” ~ Aristophanes
                  "Virescit Vulnere Virtus" ~ Stewart Clan Motto

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                    The VtR core book just says that you need to heal the damage (natural interpretation would still be all the damage dealt in the attack, imo) for the Tilts that can be healed, but Mage actually describes how to bookkeep Tilts and you need to heal all damage inflicted when you got the Tilt. Specifically you need to heal the leftmost box you filled in when you got the Tilt but since you can only heal from right to left it's pretty obvious that you need to heal all damage.

                    No this is not correct. The damage from leg-wreck and arm-wreck tilts both goes away when the damage from the attack goes away, not the leftmost damage. The same thing is implied in V:tR 2ed core, however not as clear cut.

                    Mage 2ed core p.319-323

                    If the Tilt is inflicted as a result of an attack,
                    mark an ‘x’ under the leftmost Health box inflicted in that attack.
                    The Tilt ends when that damage that caused it has healed

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Poseur View Post
                      No this is not correct. The damage from leg-wreck and arm-wreck tilts both goes away when the damage from the attack goes away, not the leftmost damage. The same thing is implied in V:tR 2ed core, however not as clear cut.
                      You aren't actually disagreeing with Tessie here.

                      Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                      The VtR core book just says that you need to heal the damage (natural interpretation would still be all the damage dealt in the attack, imo) for the Tilts that can be healed, but Mage actually describes how to bookkeep Tilts and you need to heal all damage inflicted when you got the Tilt. Specifically you need to heal the leftmost box you filled in when you got the Tilt but since you can only heal from right to left it's pretty obvious that you need to heal all damage.
                      Mage 2ed core p.319-323

                      If the Tilt is inflicted as a result of an attack,
                      mark an ‘x’ under the leftmost Health box inflicted in that attack.
                      The Tilt ends when that damage that caused it has healed


                      Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post

                        Essentially that's house ruling a free Power for all vampires. Question: Which devotion allows healing tilts reflexively? I ask because citing it may help RuneKnight3 demonstrate his point in an open fair dialogue with the ST between games because Devotions are vampire specific example of the rules we are talking about.
                        Not sure if one is published. Can easily come up with one involving say Resilience and Protean.

                        The design space for it in Werewolf is the Purity Facet of the Hunting Wolf Gift, and the Rahu Auspice Blessing.

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                        • #13
                          For my games, it depends on where the stunned tilt comes from.

                          If the stun tilt comes from physical damage to the kindred, like from a bullet to the skull, then once they heal the damage they are fine.

                          If it is from a poison, then hurt locker mentioned that Kindred can flush out toxic substances with a point a vitae.

                          If it comes from a devotion/gift/spell then that is where things become slightly more interesting to deal with, and I would make decisions based upon how they were effected by said devotion/gift/spell.

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                          • #14
                            I think it also says something about kindred and tilts when tilts weren't even included in the core rulebook of 2e.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post
                              Essentially that's house ruling a free Power for all vampires. Question: Which devotion allows healing tilts reflexively? I ask because citing it may help RuneKnight3 demonstrate his point in an open fair dialogue with the ST between games because Devotions are vampire specific example of the rules we are talking about.
                              The problem is that VtR 2e doesn't use Tilts. It mentions them once, and refers you back to the CofD core book or the GMC RU. Since it doesn't use Tilts, the book basically never addresses how vampires interact with them. Anything regarding VtR 2e vampires and Tilts is a house rule to start with (at least until the devs get around to addressing vampires and Tilts in an official way).

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