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  • Vampire vs Mages

    There are a lot "FurrVSFangs" threads. I want to broke the template a bit. Let's compare Vampires to Mages (both as 2nd edition). My own money for mages - bloodsuckers seems to be weak.

  • #2
    A vampire could beat a mage and a mage could beat a vampire. Or a giant meteor crashes on earth and beat both of them.
    Maybe its just me but for these threads i'd find more interesting and relevant if we present a scenario then ask 'as a vampire against a mage (and vice versa)in this particular scenario what would you do to win?'
    For example, a corporation owned by a vampire is trying to evict you (and the other people who live there) from the tenement where you live, how would you stop it?
    Alternatively, a corporation owned by a mage (seers or otherwise) is evicting the people in the tenement where you have your hidden haven to demolish it and build higher price condos, how would you stop it?

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    • #3
      There's really far too many variables for this to be a meaningful question.

      Depends on disciplines, arcana, clan, rotes, devotions, skills, stats, level of experience (both IC and the mechanic), cleverness of each party, prep time (including how long ahead of time they know of the upcoming conflict), whether it's an arena match or just two people in a city that want to beat each other, whether it's combat or social or something else, artifacts, environment (including time of day), and so on, ad nauseum.

      Even a mage and a vampire in a white room with the same amount of XP and mana/blood will depend almost entirely on their relative builds. Each splat has options that can blow away the other unless they have some counter.

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      • #4
        I have a simple solution:

        This post is in the Requiem forum. So we assume vampires are the PCs and they win.

        Same post in the Awakening forum would have the opposite result.

        Done, lol.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Chubby Russian View Post
          I have a simple solution:

          This post is in the Requiem forum. So we assume vampires are the PCs and they win.

          Same post in the Awakening forum would have the opposite result.

          Done, lol.
          Huh. So, why does this not work when someone bring VSthread in Werewolves thread?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Lashet View Post
            Huh. So, why does this not work when someone bring VSthread in Werewolves thread?
            Easy - screw Forsaken.

            ((I reserve the right to say the opposite in the Forsaken thread)).

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Chubby Russian View Post
              I have a simple solution:

              This post is in the Requiem forum. So we assume vampires are the PCs and they win.
              Because the PCs don't always win?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Maitrecorbo View Post
                A vampire could beat a mage and a mage could beat a vampire. Or a giant meteor crashes on earth and beat both of them.
                Maybe its just me but for these threads i'd find more interesting and relevant if we present a scenario then ask 'as a vampire against a mage (and vice versa)in this particular scenario what would you do to win?'
                For example, a corporation owned by a vampire is trying to evict you (and the other people who live there) from the tenement where you live, how would you stop it?
                Alternatively, a corporation owned by a mage (seers or otherwise) is evicting the people in the tenement where you have your hidden haven to demolish it and build higher price condos, how would you stop it?

                I appreciate the scenario but the mage-as-antagonist thing probably works better for this subforum.

                I suppose an easy way to go about it would be to just leave the apartment, stay at a coteriemate's, then come back when it's much nicer and take a new haven from there.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Actually I'm interest in this conversation just to gain a little knowledge about Mage mechanics since I haven't the core but I would introduce them sometime.
                  Dor example, can they contrast the celerity interrupt? If I interrupt their spell and blow them with Vigor have they (as mortal) chance to survive?

                  Yes I know a scenario would be more valuable but I really know so little about mage so that I'm hoping in a huge discussion as per the classical werewolf vs Vampire

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Chubby Russian View Post

                    Easy - screw Forsaken.
                    .
                    Vampires suck.
                    UPD: Sorry. That's was too rude. Vampires... just sucks. What? That's a fact
                    Last edited by Lashet; 09-01-2017, 02:07 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                      Actually I'm interest in this conversation just to gain a little knowledge about Mage mechanics since I haven't the core but I would introduce them sometime.
                      Dor example, can they contrast the celerity interrupt? If I interrupt their spell and blow them with Vigor have they (as mortal) chance to survive?
                      You need Time to do the interrupt, though you could conceivably handle it other ways, like by summoning a ghost and having it attack before a turn.

                      They might be able to survive, it depends on how hard you hit them and what Mage Armor they're using, if any. Each Mage Armor does something different. I've been pointing out to one of my players that she should always use her Matter, as opposed to her Death or Prime armor. And naturally in our last encounter Prime would have been much more useful and Matter did nothing.

                      The big thing is, mages aren't that good at spontaneity. If you can get the jump on them, you've got a good advantage. This is mostly because casting spells 'on the fly' is a little harder, simply because you might not be able to get all the Yantras you need, and using more than 1 yantra, a yantra being basically a magic focus that gives you a bonus to your dicepool, requires more than one turn of casting. Since the more powerful spells, like those that encompass multiple targets or do a lot of damage, tend to require bigger dicepools, you want all the yantras you can get.

                      If you look at the Secrets of the Covenants book, the Crusader Fighting Style is really good for countering mages, the first dot effectively giving you an anti-magic aura that penalizes targeted spells, the second 'muting' an opponent which can keep them from using some Yantras, and the third forcing an interrupt, though you would need to use it in conjunction with Celerity to really get use out of it, since most mages aren't going to sit around waiting extra turns to cast against aggressive threats.

                      Frenzy would be a nice thing to take advantage of, too. You add your Blood Potency to Stamina resistances, and many of the 'immediate' spells a mage would use to hurt you would be withstood by your Stamina. It would take another spell to 'read' your Stamina, so unless they have a lenient Storyteller they have to guess the amount they have to overcome, and while the average is something like 2-3, frenzy can put it over the top.

                      The big thing is out of combat. Mages are as susceptible to blood bonding as humans. You can use dominate, but they get a passive 'magic sense' that would alert them to that, though Majesty might get a pass if you activate it out of their perception and just walk in with it, as the sense only pings on activated abilities. A drop of Vitae in their drink, however, wouldn't trigger it. The blood bond would be detectable via further investigation, but that will depend on the frequency of your mages to invasively investigate and dissect other mages' effects, which varies from player to player.

                      That said, their magic is incredibly versatile. I don't know if you have Sacraments & Blasphemies, the Blood Sorcery book, but their magic is sort of like the Themes. Except there's 10. Each dot gives access to a whole suite of abilities. With 5 dots of Mind, for instance, you could emulate most of Dominate, Majesty, Obfuscate and Nightmare. Death allows you pretty much anything you can imagine regarding Necromancy, sort of with a Dungeons and Dragonish slant, in that it includes endings, the cold, shadows and so forth. Realistically, though, most mages aren't going to have a lot of dots in a lot of Arcana, and even accomplished mages aren't going to have many dots across all the Arcana. An 'average' for accomplished mages might be having good focus (like 4-5 dots) towards two, medium (3 dots) towards three others, and one or two dots in a couple others..
                      Last edited by nofather; 09-01-2017, 02:31 PM.

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                      • #12
                        I see. So they have interrupt too.

                        Now I have the fallowing questions:

                        - even if they become aware of dominate when activated, do they roll to resist as usual and could they be mesmerized anyway?

                        - can you provide some example of a spell that deal great amount of damages? How much damage? How long does it take to be casted?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                          - even if they become aware of dominate when activated, do they roll to resist as usual and could they be mesmerized anyway?
                          Oh yes, they can be Mesmerized like anyone else. It's just a sort of 'magic was used' thing, it doesn't even tell you what kind of magic or who it was directed at, only that something did something.

                          - can you provide some example of a spell that deal great amount of damages? How much damage? How long does it take to be casted?
                          I have to go for a little bit but when I get back I'll do it. That's one other thing, mage magic is not exactly as 'smooth' to use as disciplines, there's some calculations involved.

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                          • #14
                            The main question is: who goes first? Even vampire auras are capable of disorienting a mage and confusing them for a bit (swooning condition, etc.). However if the mage is prepared at all (hanging spells, etc.), they're going to be capable of causing a great deal of harm.

                            Look, it's interesting to pick up two splats and jam them at each other making "RAWRRR!" sounds like toy dinosaurs, but to really answer the question you need to define so many, many more variables and create an actual scenario with motivations and capabilities on both sides. And THAT is a useful forum exercise, because it can be lifted and used in someone's story, afterward.

                            Undefined? Um... mages win? Hard to beat time-travel, after all....

                            --Khanwulf

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                              I see. So they have interrupt too.

                              Now I have the fallowing questions:

                              - even if they become aware of dominate when activated, do they roll to resist as usual and could they be mesmerized anyway?

                              - can you provide some example of a spell that deal great amount of damages? How much damage? How long does it take to be casted?
                              Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                              Actually I'm interest in this conversation just to gain a little knowledge about Mage mechanics since I haven't the core but I would introduce them sometime.
                              Dor example, can they contrast the celerity interrupt? If I interrupt their spell and blow them with Vigor have they (as mortal) chance to survive?

                              Yes I know a scenario would be more valuable but I really know so little about mage so that I'm hoping in a huge discussion as per the classical werewolf vs Vampire

                              They can do Celerity stuff with Time magic(that would be the most unimaginative use of the Time arcana though) but one could replicate the same things with other arcana as well.

                              Also if it comes to the point where you can punch a mage with vigor then either the mage is bad, or the gap between you two in exp is huge or it is not a mage.

                              They can be Mesmerized but they can do the same to you in return. From their bathtub.

                              They can deal hefty amounts of damage directly if needed, but usually it is not, because arcana on the same level can just "win" anyway. I mean with Space I can send you to the Sahara desert. I do not have to blast you to pieces to win.

                              Everything nofather said is correct.

                              Once Mages get to Adept or Master level(4 and 5 dots respectively) in any of the Arcana it is impossible to keep up with them. Before that, if you manage to outsmart them or surprise them and force them into a situation they are not prepared for, you can pull it of, especially in physical combat. But to what end? You take out one, then his friends might come looking and the last thing you want is people with reality warping powers, that are the best in the cosmos in intel gathering and mystery solving(and addicted to it) setting their collective sights on you and your coterie.

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