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  • Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    Life might be able to stake a vampire by controlling a nearby tree or something.
    With which spell? He should be able to perform an aimed hit at -3 with 5 level of damage.

    By the way, what about a swarm (like the one described in demon the descent) or dogs, wolf, rats craws called with Animalism 3 that attacks the mage while he is targeting the vampires (or viceversa)? Swarm from demon deals up to 4 bashing per turn, give -2 to every roll and there could be even larger creatures like dogs.

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    • Originally posted by Marcus View Post

      Lets say 50/100 XP

      I mean an elder and an Ancient/Matusaleah level
      Wait this is for 2e right?

      I did some maths and with 76 exps a mage can get gnosis 6 (15exp), x3 arcana at 5 (37 exp assuming 3/2/1), one at 3 and one at 2 (20 exp)

      I keep seeing celerity and grappling tossed about as the best discipline vs mages but how the f*ck is your vampire going to grapple any combat mage on a chance dice? Life mages can easily get a defence of 16+ from char creation via mage armor. (boost dex, dex + athletics), with others either having stupid armour (matter mages with Aegis) etc etc. Going first when whatever you try to do is moot isnt exactly a good plan.
      Last edited by totalgit; 09-09-2017, 08:33 AM.

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      • Originally posted by Marcus View Post

        With which spell?
        This is 100% Creative Thaumaturgy. I don't see anything with a write up that could do it. Maybe Create Life to just grow one in the right place?

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        • Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
          So a Nos bloodline with Celerity and a high enough Blood Potency to use Celerity and Vigour in the same turn comes top of the list and a Daeva second?
          Does anyone have any thoughts about the numbers and power level spread of will workers compared to kindred? Unless I'm very wrong Mages will get their power stat raised faster than a Vampire would but a powerful Vampire will keep gaining power forever and not all Mages can become immortal (and as I understand it Arch-Mages are unlikely to involve themselves in this level of combat where as an Elder would act if threatened) so Vampires would rack up more elite but irreplaceable uber units and Mages would have more resistance to supernatural attacks along with information supremacy. I think we can be certain Vampires including Ghouls would have the numbers but unless the Mages are sloppy that won't be a factor. Vampires also have relatively free access to fuel, how hard is it for Mages to get Mana and how fast will they be spending it?
          Trying to answer u on your valid points

          -I think the power curve is very much faster and in favor of vampires at low levels. By the time mages gain an extra point in both gnosis and an an Arcanum vampires can acquire multiple dots in vampire disciplines and devotions. Not to mention, they can resort to diablerie to increase BP.

          However, in the long run, eventually mages will overpower vampires with pure arcana magic power and versatility. There is no way a 4 or 5 dots discipline can match 5 dots in a single arcanum. The amount of stuff a mage can accomplish with a single arcana compass two whole disciplines of equivalent level. Just take a look at mind, that can simply outpower both dominate and presence at the same time.
          Mages have always been like that... Play smart and stay low at first levels, then enjoy being at the top of the chess table when u become elder.

          -mana is really just the icing on the cake, but strictly speaking it's not necessary to cast spells
          .
          If a mage is employing his ruling arcana u don't need to spend mana. If a mage employ a rote, he doesn't need to spend a mana to cast the spell.

          Mana is spent generally for inflicting aggravated damage, heal, or reduce the paradox dice pool if the mage is summoning a giant fire tornado or collapsing that entire room in thunder and void.

          U need to spend a point of mana to cast from the inferior and common arcana if it's improvised spells.

          Mana is an issue at low levels, where the cabal and players have to buy the background or find a good spring or mana wise hallow location where they can refill. An elder mage won't probably suffer that issue that much between his sanctum and raw power, finding a good Hallow will be probably easy for him. If the mage has prime as his primary Arcanum, then mana stops being an issue at all.

          Artifacts and magical items can store mana, and chances are an elder mage will have more than one of these relics around if he needs. An elder mage worth his name will probably possess a good hallow and a well defended sanctum, just like an elder vampire wont leave his haven unprotected or well hidden.


          On the issue of immortality... yeah that's a tricky one, and it really depends on the setting and the ST approval.
          In my campagin, there are some mages who gained immortality, but they all have very low wisdom and are best to be avoided, or are tremere liches and reapers who stay well hidden in the awakened society. But they are the exception, not the rule.

          Archmages are half demigod being who ascended reality so i dont think they will find a metuselah or elder vampire as an issue or even something that they had to care for unless they have to contact him for an imperial spell practice or something...

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          • This is just a my personal view of the game so not supported by mechanical proof but I always seen matuselah as demigod of blood. I mean, thereare devotion simply too op: Juggernaut gait let you survive to the power of a nuke bomb, dark decree let you modify the fate itself, bone od the mountain let you have resilence up to 10... and so on.

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            • Yeah, but Archmages are just fucking bonkers powerful. Seriously, it's a whole different game with them.

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              • Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                This is just a my personal view of the game so not supported by mechanical proof but I always seen matuselah as demigod of blood. I mean, thereare devotion simply too op: Juggernaut gait let you survive to the power of a nuke bomb, dark decree let you modify the fate itself, bone od the mountain let you have resilence up to 10... and so on.
                Actually, thinking about it, I'm not sure if Juggernauts Gait would stop an Unmaking spell. It seems to purely prevent damage and Unmaking spells don't deal damage, they just make you die. It could be probably be argued either way though.

                Either way, mages, especially masters and elder mages aren't typically going to kill you by raw damage. They aren't going to shoot you in the face with a fireball, or with lightning, or something like that. They're going to snuff out your life force, wipe your mind, transform you into vapor, forever lock you away in a bubble of warped space that they then proceed to hide outside of normal space, etc. Things like that. Things that can't really be dealt with through normal, sensible defenses. I'm going to have to agree with Lasombra here in that for a vampire to win they're going to have to win before the mage can react. If they fail to incapacitate them in one go or the mage is the aggressor then it's generally going to be over first turn. So the best bet is to take things that ensure you go first and at least one thing that guarantees you win in the first turn.

                Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                Yeah, but Archmages are just fucking bonkers powerful. Seriously, it's a whole different game with them.
                Definitely. A protective spell using the practice of Dynamics (almost regardless of the arcana used) is going to be more than most things that don't operate on the deus ex machina levels of power can deal with.
                Last edited by Ashenrogue; 09-09-2017, 10:02 AM.

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                • Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                  This is just a my personal view of the game so not supported by mechanical proof but I always seen matuselah as demigod of blood. I mean, thereare devotion simply too op: Juggernaut gait let you survive to the power of a nuke bomb, dark decree let you modify the fate itself, bone od the mountain let you have resilence up to 10... and so on.

                  from a setting and power balance perspective, i am totally 100% with u, but in my opinion they should have powered up the vampire elder game a little more.
                  I mean, metuselah are crazy strong and they can be as well as strong as night demigods, but from a strictly mechanical point of view, arcana over 4 are simply too strong with all the implications and versatility they offer.
                  Sure, there are some devotions that are crazy powerful broken, but basically all of the arcana at 5 are simply overpowered with epic levels of capability and possible scenarios.
                  not to mention elder wizards can even cast combined spells or invent straight up new rotes that create basically any effect possible at will.
                  Juggernaut and other devotions are pretty strong..

                  but can they really make any difference when u are facing an adversary that:

                  basically can cast anything from anywhere and teleport u or himself anywhere, or simply remove himself from reality all together while still being able to target u (space)

                  can rewrite entire memories of people and supernaturals to build a zombie army and can just travel through his minions thoughts without the need to act in person (mind)

                  have access to infinite mana and magical items and can create anything he needs (prime)

                  can summon earthquakes and tornados that can level up cities or cause a nuke explosion, or become immune to all physical damage alltogether for indefinite time (forces)

                  can transform himself basically into anything imaginable and alter every human being like he desire (life)

                  can create any fetish he needs or rise an entire army or spirits to haunt u , banish u to the umbra or create entire umbral domains (spirit)

                  can literally decide his fate himself and will never be caught off guard, or can curse u so that the entire world will turn against u to kill u an you will never be able to act in your turn reducing all of your rolls to 1 chance die (fate)

                  can travel through time and rewrite history himself, remove himself from time alltogether, freeze time and control the future and will never be possible to ambush or surprise (unless another elder time mage acts against him). He cans simply travel through time, ambush u and kill u where and when u least expect . (time)

                  and this is stuff that regular elder mages like the grey Pope or the Nemean can and will do to harm u, on top of their allies, proximi, influence status orders, magical artifacts etc..


                  Archmages are even more powerful, according to what we know they ascend and don't even are part of this world anymore. Their spells chan change entire zones of reality or purviews under their arcanum, targeting entire cities or places on earth.
                  They are on a power level where they can probably face old spirit gods like luna and father wolf or the ancient FirstBorn and True Fae of arcadia and maybe survive to tell the tale.

                  There's an example of an ascended mastigos mage that became pure thought and can just possess anyone supernaturals and mages included to pass the time through centuries, i think any metuselah would have a really hard time facing an enemy made of pure though invisible and capable of possessing them like puppets.

                  while i am absolutely with you on the setting concept and the overall feeling, elder mages and archmages are simply too broken to manage and face without awakened magic.



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                  • One way I feel you can make Elder vampires (and by extension Methuselahs) more of a threat to powerful mages while staying thematic and only requiring a small bit of houseruling is by making it possible for all BP 6+ vampires to return as Ash That Devours (as per Blood Sorcery, p. 68), not just blood sorcerers. Make this mostly unknown among both Kindred and Awakened, more mysterious than the Revenant problem. Learned Kindred occultists or vampire experts among the Awakened might have an idea, but it should be relatively obscure and unknown. The ancient and powerful vampire that just won't stay dead is a well-worn trope, but clearly such deathless fortitude is just a myth, right?

                    I would suggest making it a Blood Potency roll at the moment of (not-so) Final Death; use penalties on this roll to season likelihood to taste. Maybe start out with a -5, adding more penalties for destruction by a Bane, while auspicious occult circumstances, high ratings in Resilience or a Merit based on Resilience might give bonuses. You might also want to speed up the time it takes for the Ash to reform or lower the effort necessary for it a bit to fit within the frame of the Chronicle.

                    So your cabal punked that old bat real hard, eh? Time for a drink, pat on the back and carry on with your Mysteries!

                    But then, a few weeks/months/years later you get a call. Shit, one of your (former?) cabalmates has been dropped by a mysterious assailant. By the time you warn the others a second one has been slaughtered. Oh, shit he's back!

                    Oh wait, you locked him away with Death/Spirit/Space/Pinkbunnies? Well, you now have an angry foe that your enemies will be very happy to free for help.
                    Oh, you saw this happening thanks to Time? Enjoy your paranoia and constantly loaded-up spell control (and your general level of obscene paranoia that you clearly have if you used magic to divine that an enemy you killed is going to come back)

                    If you feel especially cruel, give the Ash more sapience and sentience than as written by RAW. Unless the cabal has a powerful Death-mage they now have to deal with a powerful not-quite-ghost.
                    Last edited by saibot; 09-12-2017, 05:35 PM.


                    Politeness is the lubricant of social intercourse.

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                    • Originally posted by saibot View Post
                      One way I feel you can make Elder vampires (and by extension Methuselahs) more of a threat to powerful mages while staying thematic and only requiring a small bit of houseruling is by making it possible for all BP 6+ vampires to return as Ash That Devours (as per Blood Sorcery, p. 68), not just blood sorcerers. Make this mostly unknown among both Kindred and Awakened, more mysterious than the Revenant problem. Learned Kindred occultists or vampire experts among the Awakened might have an idea, but it should be relatively obscure and unknown. The ancient and powerful vampire that just won't stay dead is a well-worn trope, but clearly such deathless fortitude is just a myth, right?

                      I would suggest making it a Blood Potency roll at the moment of (not-so) Final Death; use penalties on this roll to season likelihood to taste. Maybe start out with a -5, adding more penalties for destruction by a Bane, while auspicious occult circumstances, high ratings in Resilience or a Merit based on Resilience might give bonuses. You might also want to speed up the time it takes for the Ash to reform or lower the effort necessary for it a bit to fit within the frame of the Chronicle.

                      So your cabal punked that old bat real hard, eh? Time for a drink, pat on the back and carry on with your Mysteries!

                      But then, a few weeks/months/years later you get a call. Shit, one of your (former?) cabalmates has been dropped by a mysterious assailant. By the time you warn the others a second one has been slaughtered. Oh, shit he's back!

                      Oh wait, you locked him away with Death/Spirit/Space/Pinkbunnies? Well, you now have an angry foe that your enemies will be very happy to free for help.
                      Oh, you saw this happening thanks to Time? Enjoy your paranoia and constantly loaded-up spell control (and your general level of obscene paranoia that you clearly have if you used magic to divine that an enemy you killed is going to come back)

                      If you feel especially cruel, give the Ash more sapience and sentience than as written by RAW. Unless the cabal has a powerful Death-mage they now have to deal with a powerful not-quite-ghost.


                      I have something like this in my homebrew. characters can have a minor templates and a major template, and I've made a plethora of minor templates. I count Bloodlines/Entitlements/Lodges/Legacies ect as minor templates exclusive to major templates for purposes of balance. I balance minor templates as roughly a Potency 1 Horror. In my setting I've replaced ghouls as specific form of blood bathing and one exceeding common amount vampires.

                      Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post

                      Bloodbather
                      There is life and mystical power in blood, and this is something every vampire knows.
                      Becoming a Bloodbather:
                      Becoming Bloodbather requires devising a bloodbathing ritual, which is described below. The process of devising a bloodbathing ritual (which uses the equipment building rules page CoD 100, Resolve + Occult if the crafting is done under pressure). Upon completing the ritual, the Bloodbather-to-be spends a Willpower Dot to bind their life force to the ritual.
                      The mechanical prerequisites to become a Bloodbather vary in the following ways
                      • If the character already has the Vampire Tag, they require Occult 1 and a Skill Specialization related to blood magic or human sacrifice. This is because becoming a Bloodbather is innately intuitive for any of those that are already sustained via vampirism, and the little remaining is the mastery represented in that skill and specialty.
                      • If the person is not already a vampire, they require a Social Merit representing the relationship to the person who is already a Bloodbather which is instructing the character in how to become an Bloodbather (even if the Bloodbather is another Player Character or Support, though this is often done as a Mentor relationship, there is flexibility in which social merit is most appropriate), Occult 2 and a Skill Specialization related to blood magic.
                      • Someone who isn’t already a vampire and has no relationship to guide them may still stumble across the methods of becoming an Bloodbather but require Occult 4 and a Skill Specialization related to blood magic.
                      Tags Gained: Vampire
                      More than one way to bleed:
                      There are fundamentally different variants of the Bloodbathing ritual and they are as follows:
                      • Ghoul Ritual: Another character with the Vampire Tag anoints or baths the Bloodbather with portion of their blood and power (Equal to an a Vitae for a Kindred or Strix, a Willpower for another Bloodbather or Horror which also counts as a vampire). The vampire character using their blood to anoint the Bloodbather to fulfilling te Bloodbather’s Feeding Aspiration may once each scene they share may refresh a Leveraged condition previously resolved on the Bloodbather. (Please note the Bloodbather may not be forced to fulfill their Feeding Aspiration against their will. To accept a vampire providing their power to fulfill the Bloodbather’s Feeding Aspiration is to accept that vampire as a master.)
                      • Atrocious Ritual: The bloodbathing ritual is described in terms that make it a 2-4 point Atrocity which involve bathing in blood and is committed by the Bloodbather. The Atrocity must be done is a ceremonial way, and its details must be consistent with how it was first described when this minor template was gained.
                      • Cult Ritual: This ritual requires being a top ranking member of a Mystery Cult (Which means having the 5th dot) whose ultimate secret purpose is to maintain those at top as Bloodbathers through either committing atrocities for the leaders or through sharing the burden of bloodletting among willing devotees. Which way the cults work is defined when founding the Mystery Cult, but either way maintaining the Bloodbather template is the benefit not expressed game mechanic granted by the 5th dot of this particular Mystery Cult. The number of times the cult can fulfill a particular Bloodbather’s Feeding Aspiration is determined by that Bloodbather’s dots in the Herd merit.
                      Sanguine Will: May spend Vitae instead of Willpower to use Dread Powers, and may spend Willpower instead of other Vitae when using a Discipline. This does not grant a Vitae Pool, which must be acquired from another source for this to be applicable for the character.
                      Potency: The character gains one dot of Potency as if he were a Horror, this affect Willpower Capacity, and Supernatural Tolerance. For those with a Major Template the Supernatural Tolerance does stack with that granted by the splat’s Power Stat.
                      Sustained by Bloodbathing: Every month a Bloodbather goes without fulfilling their Feeding Aspiration she loses access to a Willpower Dot, but upon fulfilling the Bloodbather’s Feeding Aspiration she regains access to all the Willpower Dots she lost access to, in the state they were lost in(filled with Willpower Points or empty). Bloodbather also gain Willpower points by fulfilling her Feeding Aspiration. Unlike other types of Aspirations the Feeding Aspiration does not grant Beats.
                      Feeding Aspiration: Perform their personally devised version of the bloodbath ritual.
                      Dread Powers:
                      Immortal (this includes a cessation of aging, and the special condition that can bring a Bloodbather back is a bloody human ritual sacrifice done in the Bloodbather’s name, but the Bloodbather may)
                      Numen: Resurrection (May only be used on a being with the Vampire Tag, and the Willpower points may only be spent during fulfilling the Feeding Aspiration, and thus may require multiple bloodbaths to complete. Additionally this version does not remove any template that adds the Vampire Tag.)
                      Numen: Rapture

                      Storytelling Hints: Bloodbathers and the variety between different types put morality themes in stark contrast. Fundamental to these themes are questions like “How can the value of life be measured?” and “What would the consequences of removing the finality of death?”. While exploring themes that sprout up from
                      Conditional immortality with a price already being a vampire trope I don't find this out of place, and the interconnections the ghoul ritual causes makes for more intricate and stable vampire politics (it's a serious nerf to those that would resolve issues through violence).
                      Last edited by Pale_Crusader; 09-12-2017, 07:05 PM.


                      “Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.” ~ Aristophanes
                      "Virescit Vulnere Virtus" ~ Stewart Clan Motto

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                      • Originally posted by saibot View Post
                        One way I feel you can make Elder vampires (and by extension Methuselahs) more of a threat to powerful mages while staying thematic and only requiring a small bit of houseruling is by making it possible for all BP 6+ vampires to return as Ash That Devours (as per Blood Sorcery, p. 68), not just blood sorcerers. Make this mostly unknown among both Kindred and Awakened, more mysterious than the Revenant problem. Learned Kindred occultists or vampire experts among the Awakened might have an idea, but it should be relatively obscure and unknown. The ancient and powerful vampire that just won't stay dead is a well-worn trope, but clearly such deathless fortitude is just a myth, right?

                        I would suggest making it a Blood Potency roll at the moment of (not-so) Final Death; use penalties on this roll to season likelihood to taste. Maybe start out with a -5, adding more penalties for destruction by a Bane, while auspicious occult circumstances, high ratings in Resilience or a Merit based on Resilience might give bonuses. You might also want to speed up the time it takes for the Ash to reform or lower the effort necessary for it a bit to fit within the frame of the Chronicle.

                        So your cabal punked that old bat real hard, eh? Time for a drink, pat on the back and carry on with your Mysteries!

                        But then, a few weeks/months/years later you get a call. Shit, one of your (former?) cabalmates has been dropped by a mysterious assailant. By the time you warn the others a second one has been slaughtered. Oh, shit he's back!

                        Oh wait, you locked him away with Death/Spirit/Space/Pinkbunnies? Well, you now have an angry foe that your enemies will be very happy to free for help.
                        Oh, you saw this happening thanks to Time? Enjoy your paranoia and constantly loaded-up spell control (and your general level of obscene paranoia that you clearly have if you used magic to divine that an enemy you killed is going to come back)

                        If you feel especially cruel, give the Ash more sapience and sentience than as written by RAW. Unless the cabal has a powerful Death-mage they now have to deal with a powerful not-quite-ghost.

                        Could someone please explain me what Ash that Devours is and how it works?

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                        • Originally posted by Marcus View Post


                          Could someone please explain me what Ash that Devours is and how it works?
                          It is an idea from Blood Sorcery. Essentially, when an experienced blood sorcerer is destroyed, there is a chance they come back as a semi-sentient cloud of ash. After a while, this cloud of ash gains some drive, leading it to diablerize their way back to corporality. Every successful diablerie gives it back a dot of Humanity and Blood Potency. Once it has reached its original values, the vampire is whole once more, ready to rock. Mechanically, while in this ash form it is essentially a peculiar kind of ghost.


                          Politeness is the lubricant of social intercourse.

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                          • Originally posted by saibot View Post

                            It is an idea from Blood Sorcery. Essentially, when an experienced blood sorcerer is destroyed, there is a chance they come back as a semi-sentient cloud of ash. After a while, this cloud of ash gains some drive, leading it to diablerize their way back to corporality. Every successful diablerie gives it back a dot of Humanity and Blood Potency. Once it has reached its original values, the vampire is whole once more, ready to rock. Mechanically, while in this ash form it is essentially a peculiar kind of ghost.

                            Okey this actually gave me a reason to read through Blood Sacraments that's in my bookshelf. This is amazing!

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                            • Originally posted by saibot View Post

                              It is an idea from Blood Sorcery. Essentially, when an experienced blood sorcerer is destroyed, there is a chance they come back as a semi-sentient cloud of ash. After a while, this cloud of ash gains some drive, leading it to diablerize their way back to corporality. Every successful diablerie gives it back a dot of Humanity and Blood Potency. Once it has reached its original values, the vampire is whole once more, ready to rock. Mechanically, while in this ash form it is essentially a peculiar kind of ghost.
                              Nice, really. Could you tell me whit which statistic he could diablerize?

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                              • Originally posted by Marcus View Post

                                Nice, really. Could you tell me whit which statistic he could diablerize?
                                Do you mean what roll to use? Since the normal one is Strength + Resolve, I figure the Ash rolls Power + Resistance. Its Power, Finesse and Resistance are equal to the highest Attribute ratings of that type the vampire had at the time of (not-so) Final Death.


                                Politeness is the lubricant of social intercourse.

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