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Vampire vs Mages

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  • Ok I understand. Thank you

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    • Don't know if it might help but this is how I would balance a metuselah vampire so it can be really a problem for an elder mage.
      For the sake of simplicity, I will consider only three types of general random vampires, the physical one, the social predator, and the blood sorcerer.

      Social one_ can probably call allies and powers that can match or be a serious nuisance for Mages. He probably has some elder mage as ally and /or wizards as lovers.maybe even werewolves.

      Physical one - this is a tricky one, and it really depends on the build. But I personally would rule that a warrior monster that survived centuries of pain and injuries has probably developed some kind of wild and weird resistance also to the mystical arts. I would allow to add half of his blood potency to his whitstand score against spells. That should be enough.

      -blood sorcerer_ i would allow him to know one or two or more rituals that can work also against awakened magic and can even dispell them or shield from them, like a sort of "blood prime" counterspell.

      As a general rule, I would allow for devotions, coils, cruac and theban sorcery to work also against specific spells or arcana.

      A great faith derived from the Lancea sanctum fervor might shield from mind influence and Fate manipulations

      A cruac ritual might shield from space spells, teleportations and spying.

      I could also imagine a knight oath that a member of invictus can take to kill a mage and that can protect him from direct harm spells, or a specific carthian movement motion to bind the mage to the will of the movement and dispel his magic (there is already something similar in secrets of the covenant if I remember well).

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      • Originally posted by Lasombra View Post
        Physical one - this is a tricky one, and it really depends on the build. But I personally would rule that a warrior monster that survived centuries of pain and injuries has probably developed some kind of wild and weird resistance also to the mystical arts. I would allow to add half of his blood potency to his whitstand score against spells. That should be enough.
        Frenzying and Riding the Wave should be enough at that point, you raise your Stamina by your full Blood Potency, drastically increasing Withstand that targets it.

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        • Originally posted by nofather View Post

          Frenzying and Riding the Wave should be enough at that point, you raise your Stamina by your full Blood Potency, drastically increasing Withstand that targets it.
          What spells are affected by Stamina and how?

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          • Originally posted by Marcus View Post

            What spells are affected by Stamina and how?
            Every spell that targets the subject's body and its abilities directly. As with contesting/resisting vampiric Disciplines, those that target emotions are Withstood by Composure and those that target the will are Withstood by Resolve. Noteworthy, those that target a character's fate are usually withstood with Composure, but rarely with Resolve if they would directly impact the subject's behavior (like a geas that would curse a subject if it acted a certain way).


            Politeness is the lubricant of social intercourse.

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            • So just subtracting the attribute to the mage roll am I right?

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              • Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                So just subtracting the attribute to the mage roll am I right?
                Not directly - Withstand reduces Potency. For "Works or it doesn't" effects Potency must be at least 1 to have any effect, so Withstand >= Potency blocks the spell. The Mage then has to use Spell Factors (-2 dice) to increase Potency so it has any effect. Or hope for an Exceptional Success to bypass Withstand.


                Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                • No. Withstand ratings removes Potency from the spell. Potency is decided when the spell is cast. That can make it a bit of a guesswork to find the right Potency to make the spell go off at all since zero Potency means no effect. You can increase Potency by 1 by removing 2 dice from your dice pool.


                  Bloodline: The Stygians
                  Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

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                  • So lets do an example:

                    Mage with Gnosis 5 arcana 5 rolls 10 dice to have a spell with potency 1. He decides to take it at potency 4 so -6 dice on the roll.
                    He rolls 4 dice and have 2 successes.

                    I have lets say stamina 6 (Stamina 3 resilenza 3). The spell doesn't have any effect?

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                    • Correct. About half the spells also have free Potency equal to the Arcana rating.
                      Also, direct damage dealing spells don't normally use Withstand. So if the mage casts your example as a damage dealing spell it'd deal 4 damage of some kind. Depending on how the spell works the damage might bypass armor, but probably never Resilience if that is used.


                      Bloodline: The Stygians
                      Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

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                      • Understand. So space, time or force spells should be affected by stamina as they affect the body? (I'm not sure about time)

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                        • Mostly, but Withstand is specified when the spell is created. No hard rules for what Arcana are Withstood by what Resistance Attributes.


                          Bloodline: The Stygians
                          Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

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                          • Usually stamina whistand direct modifications to the body or direct damage inflicted by life spells.
                            The infamous ban that can close a vampire or render the mage immune to anything is a space spell who cannot be whitstood.

                            Time spells if they involve predictions and scryng in the past are whitstood by temporal sympathy, the relationship between the present and the target. Stamina only helps if I cast a time spell directly on the vampire to slow his time and paralyze him.
                            If I want to predict the fate and future of a vampire for example, he doesn't have any special protection beside anonimity and the temporal difficulty of my casting.

                            Direct fate spells that damage the body or cause tilt like arm wreck are usually whitstood.

                            Mind spells that can control or modify the mind of the vampire are whitstood usually by resolve or composure. High mental attributes help against mind magic.

                            Matter spells that can seal a vampire away in a prison made of any material are not whitstood, as suddenly turning the floor below the vampire into lava.

                            Gravity spells that sends a vampire flying are not whitstood.

                            Direct blast of plasma or fireballs are not whitstood.

                            Generally speaking, anything that affects the environment around the vampire cannot be whitstood by any trait the vampire possess.

                            That's what's scary about mages, they don't need to target u directly to kill u or win a fight.

                            If a vampire possesses 5 in stamina 5 in vigor and resilience and he has the juggernaut devotion active, it won't save him from my ban spell that will simply seal him away with no possibility of return..

                            Or maybe I can just teleport him out in space and let him witness the sun face to face...

                            Yep, some spells are just broken, and things that usually save you from other means of arm are simply useless.

                            Even a werewolf ability to regenerate all lethal and bashing damage each turn is basically only a minor problem to a mage that knows how to control the battlefield and play smart.

                            In the case of elder mages, each and every single template from every tower will have at least one spell that allows them to trump against other enemies in one turn, or at least seriously hinder them and stop the fight.

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                            • Originally posted by nofather View Post

                              Frenzying and Riding the Wave should be enough at that point, you raise your Stamina by your full Blood Potency, drastically increasing Withstand that targets it.
                              I wanted to give the vampires also a chance to resist all kinds of spells in general, regardless of the Whitstand attribute, but u have a point here.

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                              • For the affects-the-area spells, you might be able to create a Devotion with Animalism or Obfuscate (for their area powers) and Resilience to project "your" defenses over the claimed area, and justify it having Withstand.

                                That is a custom/homebrew method, though, not Core/RAW.


                                Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                                Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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