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Vampire vs Mages

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  • #16
    Following scenario:
    A Kindred with his teeth in the Organized Crime Scene controls a majority of people via powerful blood bonds, use of Majesty and let's throw in the occasional Dominate. So let us assume a Coils of the Voivode 4, Majesty 4, Dominate 3 kinda guy.
    For unspecified reasons, a non-Mind Mage (Let's go with a Time 4/Fate 3/Life 2/Space 2 Acanthus) needs to wrestle that control away. (He needs the Control to end, not necessarily the vamp, nor does he merely need some gangsters to do something for him).
    In this scenario, for some reason, both cannot rely on their Cabal/Coterie as those are busy otherwise, vanilla mortals are fair game though.

    A) both know of each other, and their respective goals
    B) neither knows about the supernatural nature of the other (yet) but are aware of each other's existance (There's this guy that wants my power gone/I need to remove that guy's control)
    C) neither know anything about the other


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Marcus View Post
      - can you provide some example of a spell that deal great amount of damages? How much damage? How long does it take to be casted?
      Most of the Arcana have spells that can deal aggravated damage at their fourth level if they spend mana. Otherwise, it'd just do lethal.

      In a directly combative sense then the Carthian Movement and the Lancea et Sanctum have the best antimagic counter measures. The Ordo Dracul has their wyrm's nests, so they'd know the magical aspects of the area (just not nearly as well, nor could they make use of most of it); however their coils let them cheat aspects of the vampiric condition, so they would be a wild card. The Circle of the Crone would be better when it came to offensive blood magic, and they could weaponize collective havens. The Invictus have very little in the mystical sense, but when it comes to manipulating mortal society they are one of the best. However, they lose out on half the day, and Mages get a full one.

      Mages have better powers than the vampires. There really is no point in debating that aspect. Give a mage enough time to prepare and he can magick up new allies to fight against you, or summon the ghosts of vampire victims to wage war, or a host of other bad things. However, sending a normal swat team in would help even things out.

      So, both have their advantages and disadvantages. Vampires can use their powers in front of normal people, but normally choose not to because of the masquerade. Mages would use their powers in front of normal people, but that is far too dangerous for them to do.

      There's a lot of versus threads popping up. I'd like to see a thread pop up on how these splats could play off of their strengths and weaknesses by working together.

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      • #18
        We could do an experiment:

        - One give a setting (environment(Alley, Trafficated road, forest...), situation (combat, social... ) XP cap)

        - one create and play a Mage

        - one create and play a Vampire

        And play: scenario per scenario. Could be fun?

        Edit: Master would be anyone well aware of the rules for both the setting but nor Mage player neither Vampire.
        Last edited by Marcus; 09-01-2017, 04:01 PM.

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        • #19
          Continuing from my earlier post, and apologies for the wall of text.

          The default mage spell is cast by touch (Range), lasts for one turn (Duration), affects a subject of Size 5 or less, or an area equal to an arms length circle around a point (Scale), takes an amount of time to cast based on Gnosis (Casting Time), and grants a 1 die bonus or penalty, deals 1 point of weapon damage or heals 1 wound (Potency). The dicepool is Gnosis + Arcana of the spell and is going to be modified by a whole mess of things. The big things that are going to change is Range, Duration, Scale, Casting Time and Potency. They're called spell factors.

          Starting with the easiest first. Touch range is crippling in combat. You can use a Reach to turn Range to Advanced, letting you to cast at Sensory range, allowing you to cast at things you can see or hear, potentially smell maybe. Casting Time is also a huge disadvantage, at Gnosis 1-2 a spell casts 3 hours to cast. However, you can use a Reach to get Advanced Casting Time, making it cast that turn.

          Standard Duration is counted in turns, but can be made Advanced to count for longer periods (a scene, a day, a week, a month, a year, or indefinite). Standard Scale goes up in small increments too (one subject no greater than Size 5, two subjects no greater than Size 6, or arms reach from a central point or an area of effect the size of a small room), but can be upgraded to Advanced to allow for much larger groups (5 Subjects no greater than Size 5, 10 Subjects no greater than Size 10, or an area the size of a large house). Potency is how 'powerful' the spell is, not counting Scale or Duration. It can be made Advanced but only helps in regards to Withstanding Dispellation. Each Potency = 1 more 'point' whether it's damage healed, damage done, enchantment bonus or whatever. You get some free increments based on Primary Spell Factor, depending upon your Arcana dots.

          Reach is pretty powerful. You get free Reach based on the highest arcanum dot used in the spell, and the arcanum rating of your character. You can use more Reach, regardless, it just causes Paradox.

          Each of the Spell Factors has two tables, one for Standard, one for Advanced. They are raised by increments, and each increment raised adds a -2 dice penalty to your spellcasting roll, which remember is Gnosis + Arcana. So, say my Gnosis is 2, my Mind is 4. I want to cast a ridiculous spell to do one Lethal damage. Lethal is a 4 dot spell, I have 4 dots in Mind, so I have 1 free Reach. They aren't going to stand there for 3 hours to let me gather my spell, so I use my one Reach for that. I'm pretty quick, so I'll have it still based on Touch (Dexterity + Brawl - Defense). Damage is 'lasting' so I don't need to use Duration. Scale is still one Subject, Size 5. The big thing is Potency. With Gnosis 2, Mind 4, my dicepool is going to be 6, to do 1 damage (as I have 1 Potency, default). For every point of Potency I add, my dicepool gets -2. I can use a Yantra to up my dicepool, but a yantra must be semiotically linked to the spell. Some Storytellers go easy on this but Charlaquin made a good list of what yantras can be. Your Gnosis determines the maximum amount of Yantras you can use, but you only get one for 'free' and the others take an extra turn of spellcasting, which is pretty prohibitive for fighting (though note you can cast a quick spell to keep an opponent away, then use that time to prepare a more powerful one). For this example, the spell is Mind Flay, and my character has a bone skinning knife, because I don't know why, that counts as their Path tool. This gives them a +1. With a dicepool of seven I can guarantee that 1 Lethal damage, but I could conceivably up my Potency by 3, giving me -6, and a Dicepool of 1, then cast with Willpower, for a 'good chance' with 4 dice. Now that penalties have been figured out, my wife reminds me that the spell's Primary Factor is Potency, so I get a +3 to the Potency (your Arcana -1), making the total Potency 7. Then I roll to touch, and potentially Mind Flay them. I could have risked Paradox to make the spell cast Sensory, and I wouldn't require a touch roll and could just zap them.

          If I succeed in this spell, I do 7 Lethal Damage. The Potency is set for damage. I don't get any extras based on how many Successes I roll (there is a potential exception in this with Exceptional Successes).

          Marcus I think that's a neat idea, but considering the variation you find among vampires and mages, just one match might not cover it.

          I think I got this right, I know there's a lot of potential exceptions, like praxes and rotes but this seems correct for the basic spellcasting.
          Last edited by nofather; 09-01-2017, 06:15 PM.

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          • #20
            So I should buy giant if I'm expecting to fight a Mage?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
              So I should buy giant if I'm expecting to fight a Mage?
              Size increases are surprisingly helpful, so yes, they're a big thing with werewolves with reflexive shifting. With Advanced Scale you can cast on a room, but that can cost Reach. Obviously Obfuscate is really useful for dodging Touch and Sensory range spells, too.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by nofather View Post
                Continuing from my earlier post, and apologies for the wall of text.

                The default mage spell is cast by touch (Range), lasts for one turn (Duration), affects a subject of Size 5 or less, or an area equal to an arms length circle around a point (Scale), takes an amount of time to cast based on Gnosis (Casting Time), and grants a 1 die bonus or penalty, deals 1 point of weapon damage or heals 1 wound (Potency). The dicepool is Gnosis + Arcana of the spell and is going to be modified by a whole mess of things. The big things that are going to change is Range, Duration, Scale, Casting Time and Potency. They're called spell factors.

                Starting with the easiest first. Touch range is crippling in combat. You can use a Reach to turn Range to Advanced, letting you to cast at Sensory range, allowing you to cast at things you can see or hear, potentially smell maybe. Casting Time is also a huge disadvantage, at Gnosis 1-2 a spell casts 3 hours to cast. However, you can use a Reach to get Advanced Casting Time, making it cast that turn.

                Standard Duration is counted in turns, but can be made Advanced to count for longer periods (a scene, a day, a week, a month, a year, or indefinite). Standard Scale goes up in small increments too (one subject no greater than Size 5, two subjects no greater than Size 6, or arms reach from a central point or an area of effect the size of a small room), but can be upgraded to Advanced to allow for much larger groups (5 Subjects no greater than Size 5, 10 Subjects no greater than Size 10, or an area the size of a large house). Potency is how 'powerful' the spell is, not counting Scale or Duration. It can be made Advanced but only helps in regards to Withstanding Dispellation. Each Potency = 1 more 'point' whether it's damage healed, damage done, enchantment bonus or whatever. You get some free increments based on Primary Spell Factor, depending upon your Arcana dots.

                Reach is pretty powerful. You get free Reach based on the highest arcanum dot used in the spell, and the arcanum rating of your character. You can use more Reach, regardless, it just causes Paradox.

                Each of the Spell Factors has two tables, one for Standard, one for Advanced. They are raised by increments, and each increment raised adds a -2 dice penalty to your spellcasting roll, which remember is Gnosis + Arcana. So, say my Gnosis is 2, my Mind is 4. I want to cast a ridiculous spell to do one Lethal damage. Lethal is a 4 dot spell, I have 4 dots in Mind, so I have 1 free Reach. They aren't going to stand there for 3 hours to let me gather my spell, so I use my one Reach for that. I'm pretty quick, so I'll have it still based on Touch (Dexterity + Brawl - Defense). Damage is 'lasting' so I don't need to use Duration. Scale is still one Subject, Size 5. The big thing is Potency. With Gnosis 2, Mind 4, my dicepool is going to be 6, to do 1 damage (as I have 1 Potency, default). For every point of Potency I add, my dicepool gets -2. I can use a Yantra to up my dicepool, but a yantra must be semiotically linked to the spell. Some Storytellers go easy on this but Charlaquin made a good list of what yantras can be. Your Gnosis determines the maximum amount of Yantras you can use, but you only get one for 'free' and the others take an extra turn of spellcasting, which is pretty prohibitive for fighting (though note you can cast a quick spell to keep an opponent away, then use that time to prepare a more powerful one). For this example, the spell is Mind Flay, and my character has a bone skinning knife, because I don't know why, that counts as their Path tool. This gives them a +1. With a dicepool of seven I can guarantee that 1 Lethal damage, but I could conceivably up my Potency by 3, giving me -6, and a Dicepool of 1, then cast with Willpower, for a 'good chance' with 4 dice. Now that penalties have been figured out, my wife reminds me that the spell's Primary Factor is Potency, so I get a +3 to the Potency (your Arcana -1), making the total Potency 7. Then I roll to touch, and potentially Mind Flay them. I could have risked Paradox to make the spell cast Sensory, and I wouldn't require a touch roll and could just zap them.

                If I succeed in this spell, I do 7 Lethal Damage. The Potency is set for damage. I don't get any extras based on how many Successes I roll (there is a potential exception in this with Exceptional Successes).

                Marcus I think that's a neat idea, but considering the variation you find among vampires and mages, just one match might not cover it.

                I think I got this right, I know there's a lot of potential exceptions, like praxes and rotes but this seems correct for the basic spellcasting.
                Really, Thank you for your explanation. Probably I'm not inside this mechanics but still it doesn't seems to me a great deal for a combat vampire (I'm talking about combat vampire since we are consodering damage spell). I mean, with resilence I could avoid the great part of the damage refkexively and deal my blow or kiss. What am I missing?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                  We could do an experiment:

                  - One give a setting (environment(Alley, Trafficated road, forest...), situation (combat, social... ) XP cap)

                  - one create and play a Mage

                  - one create and play a Vampire

                  And play: scenario per scenario. Could be fun?

                  Edit: Master would be anyone well aware of the rules for both the setting but nor Mage player neither Vampire.

                  This, but for a good study, there should be several attempts. Let's say a given number of players. Half create a vampire each with those conditions, the other half create a mage each, then pair them off in a 1v1 rpg battlle to the death (or, other ways of ending the conflict in one's favour). Observe the matchups, create a tier list and a strategy guide for the scenario no one will ever play again.

                  I'd read the fuck out of that thread.

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                  • #24
                    Space magic is probably the most annoying one. 3 dots of that and you can swing at them only for it to turn out, whoops, they're not actually there.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                      Really, Thank you for your explanation. Probably I'm not inside this mechanics but still it doesn't seems to me a great deal for a combat vampire (I'm talking about combat vampire since we are consodering damage spell). I mean, with resilence I could avoid the great part of the damage refkexively and deal my blow or kiss. What am I missing?
                      Mages can also take advantage of the usual banes for vampires, and probably at a lesser arcana. You wouldn't need to 'fireball' a vampire, when you can just set the entire room aflame, for instance.

                      Elfive has it right, too, Space magic allows you to cast spells beyond sensory range, at sympathetic range, through connections they have with others. Time magic can also let you rewind things, so if a fight has gone bad, they can back up and try again. Providing they get the spell off.

                      Space is the big thing, because you can do it in the comfort of your own home, getting all the yantra bonuses you want, taking extra time to make it a ritual spell.. A lot of people underestimate the importance of the sympathetic yantras, though.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by nofather View Post

                        Mages can also take advantage of the usual banes for vampires, and probably at a lesser arcana. You wouldn't need to 'fireball' a vampire, when you can just set the entire room aflame, for instance.

                        Elfive has it right, too, Space magic allows you to cast spells beyond sensory range, at sympathetic range, through connections they have with others. Time magic can also let you rewind things, so if a fight has gone bad, they can back up and try again. Providing they get the spell off.

                        Space is the big thing, because you can do it in the comfort of your own home, getting all the yantra bonuses you want, taking extra time to make it a ritual spell.. A lot of people underestimate the importance of the sympathetic yantras, though.
                        Yes, once a Mage gets a decent Sympathetic Yantra (and has Space 2, obviously), Scry-and-Die becomes the major danger. Time 2 can do similarly.


                        Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                        Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                          Space magic is probably the most annoying one. 3 dots of that and you can swing at them only for it to turn out, whoops, they're not actually there.

                          DonĀ“t forget Fate aka "I see a stake in your future".

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                          • #28
                            "Here's a souvenir I brought back from a trip to china. Where it's currently noon."
                            *teleport'd*

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                            • #29
                              Lets please not make out that it's that easy or that everyone can do it, or we're back on the train with vampires with every discipline at their disposal and armies of silver-armored police. Space and Time are very useful against vampires.
                              Last edited by nofather; 09-02-2017, 07:04 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Actually thinking about it you might just be able to shoot sunlight from a scrying window...

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