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  • #31
    Usually the power gap between single powers is so huge it's not even worth comparing them. 3dots in an arcana are usually as strong or stronger than 4 or 5 dots in a discipline or devotion.

    However setting and contest of the battle change things a little, I link to u an interesting discussion where I explained my points...

    http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...-in-line/page6

    Consider this_
    If vampires have the surprise advantage, time for prep and the situation allows for ambush, obfuscate and surprise attack, they can win and probably will. Mages without armor and magical shielding are very, very weak.

    If mages know what's coming for them, have time to get ready or the situation allows them to be the ones ahead of the race, they will probably level and annihilate every supernatural of any other splat. Unless said supernaturals have really really powerful Allies (ancient ghosts or powerful spirits, other mages...) or are Really REALLY fucking strong (in the case of vampires, metuselah level).

    @Marcus

    Thing is, if u are thinking about straight fighting like gangrel or daeva do, mage don't even need to get close to u or draw a gun to fuck you up. Space time and fate, heck even matter or forces means the mage won't even be a target for vampires...


    If anyones interested, I can also link an old discussion where my cabal of players had to face a coterie and their ghouls to free a mage hostage. That might show a little of what I mean.
    Last edited by Lasombra; 09-03-2017, 12:10 AM.

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    • #32
      A *highly specialized* Vampire can wreck havok on a Mage. It involved Resolve 5, Sorcerous Eunich, Coda Against Sorcery 5, Lance's Special FS, and Obfuscate 3+ (all doable at creation). It involves the Kindred having initiative and not losing like a chump on the Clash of Wills, even then. Coda and Sorcerous Eunich *might* apply to Clash of Wills?

      You still need to worry about spells that have no Withstand and do not target you, for instance Ban. Obfiscate comes into play there, where the idea is they never see you coming. This doesn't help against Magey McBuffaton, though.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by SoulGambit View Post
        A *highly specialized* Vampire can wreck havok on a Mage. It involved Resolve 5, Sorcerous Eunich, Coda Against Sorcery 5, Lance's Special FS, and Obfuscate 3+ (all doable at creation). It involves the Kindred having initiative and not losing like a chump on the Clash of Wills, even then. Coda and Sorcerous Eunich *might* apply to Clash of Wills?

        You still need to worry about spells that have no Withstand and do not target you, for instance Ban. Obfiscate comes into play there, where the idea is they never see you coming. This doesn't help against Magey McBuffaton, though.
        Mages has many more means of going about un noticed than obfuscate. What makes you so sure you will be able to surprise/spot one who doesnt want to be found?

        Forces Invis, Mind Incognito, Death veiling vs vampires, Prime veiling vs everything, Spirit mages probably in twilight. Nearly every path has some means of going about undetected if needs be except maybe an Acanthus but with them having Time and all, good luck surprising them.

        I mean sure, i bet anybody can make a splat that is solely built to fight a mage and it might win but the point is mages DONT need to be built soley to fight any other splat, they are versatile enough that if smart have many ways to defeat or escape any threat, before during or even after its happened.

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        • #34
          Why is this even under debate? I don't get it. Mages are openly acknoweldged to have more advantages than pretty much any other splat out there. Even if it wasn't for the power of their Arcana at high levels, they specialize in information gathering and shielding. While I'm all for claiming we shouldn't ignore vampire mystics who can predict the future or a vampire's ability to call upon a covenant, mages get the exact same considerations PLUS the ablity obscure what they're doing so the vampires don't know.

          Most of the time, a vamp and mage will come into conflict is if the vampire accidentily infringes on the mage's territory and the mage senses it and does something about it. The vampire, likely trying to feed on a sleepwalker, is probably going to be caught off guard because they can't sense the mage back by default, whereas any of the vamp's hunting tools are easily pinged by Passive Mage Sight at minimum. The scenario will flop around a lot, but the mage is almost always going to be the one who wins simply because they'll be quicker to figure out a vamp is around than the vamp realizing the mage is.


          In any wartime / battle scenario, information is king. Mages specialize in information. That means the Awakened will usually win. The only situation that vampries come out ahead is in the field of long term mind control, and even then its a shaky lead.

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          • #35
            Honestly, I don't see this disparity that is getting so much attention. Yes, if the mage has plenty of time to prepare and everything goes his way and all the arcana fall into place etc; sure. Odd game you are playing, though, where the mage gets to plan a slow hit on the vamp without any plot complications.

            Much is made of the unmaking spells, for instance. Instakill buttons are scary. But to get there, a mage needs a) 5 dots in an arcanum and b) 5 dots in gnosis. A comparable leech is scary as hell. Even before any disciplines are added, a vampire with 5 BP in frenzy can add 15 to any physical dicepool. One sniper bullet out of the mage's sensory range/thrown barstool in range and he is likely toast - even for a vampire with no dots in the relevant abilities. Or 15 dots to sneak up (or merely 10 if you rule the current frenzy supercedes the ability to be a stealthy predator) before adding any natural skills. If you get close enough for the grapple, that +15 dice is v. likely to give you an exceptional success - which means an additional +5 damage due to blood loss if you apply the feed move. Depending on how you take the wording, a 5BP vampire should get an additional +5 to either stamina or all withstand ratings in frenzy. Even an unprepared vampire in a physical confrontation is terrifying, and almost certainly lethal, to most mages if they get within grabbing distance. And this is all before you apply disciplines, ghoul hordes etc.

            Of course, if the mage is sniping from safety, the vampire might die. Vice versa, too, though. If the sniper rifle from a helicopter doesn't take your fancy, how about the level 2 cruac ritual that kills any mortal at any distance by exploding their bowels (Shed the Virulent Bowels, I believe). Or some of the resist magic merits from the same.

            In my mage game? We had one obfuscate 3 vampire tear up two different mages - one with matter 4, one with death 4. We even had the death specialist immune to obfuscate with an improvised spell (the mage won the clash), but stellar stealth rolls meant the vampire got in there and stomped the mage in a grapple. Both mages ended up bloodbound in a cellar - for more drama ensuing. There is a chance in the next game that our acanthus is going to have a battle with some vamp heavy in fortitude, and I think trickiness is going to be more useful than any agg damage.

            Theoretically, sitting in my armchair, I know how to prevent a mugging. When it happens, I hope the muggers work out what I have planned for them, and are glad to go along with it.
            Last edited by hoodedclaw; 09-03-2017, 04:05 PM.

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            • #36
              This entire thread is pointless.

              vampire if you want to play politics, backstabbing, personal horror and favor exchange

              Mage if you want to play magical exploration and uncover secrets, encounter monsters and wtfs

              Versus wise depends on the scenario, a mage could engulf a vampire with fire using the Forces Arcana and call it a day, a vampire could seduce an unwary mage, drag him back to her haven and get that sweet, sweet awakened Vitae when he is most vulnerable

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              • #37
                Edit: doubled post sorry.
                Last edited by Marcus; 09-03-2017, 04:45 PM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by hoodedclaw View Post
                  Honestly, I don't see this disparity that is getting so much attention. Yes, if the mage has plenty of time to prepare and everything goes his way and all the arcana fall into place etc; sure. Odd game you are playing, though, where the mage gets to plan a slow hit on the vamp without any plot complications.

                  Much is made of the unmaking spells, for instance. Instakill buttons are scary. But to get there, a mage needs a) 5 dots in an arcanum and b) 5 dots in gnosis. A comparable leech is scary as hell. Even before any disciplines are added, a vampire with 5 BP in frenzy can add 15 to any physical dicepool. One sniper bullet out of the mage's sensory range/thrown barstool in range and he is likely toast - even for a vampire with no dots in the relevant abilities. Or 15 dots to sneak up (or merely 10 if you rule the current frenzy supercedes the ability to be a stealthy predator) before adding any natural skills. If you get close enough for the grapple, that +15 dice is v. likely to give you an exceptional success - which means an additional +5 damage due to blood loss if you apply the feed move. Depending on how you take the wording, a 5BP vampire should get an additional +5 to either stamina or all withstand ratings in frenzy. Even an unprepared vampire in a physical confrontation is terrifying, and almost certainly lethal, to most mages if they get within grabbing distance. And this is all before you apply disciplines, ghoul hordes etc.

                  Of course, if the mage is sniping from safety, the vampire might die. Vice versa, too, though. If the sniper rifle from a helicopter doesn't take your fancy, how about the level 2 cruac ritual that kills any mortal at any distance by exploding their bowels (Shed the Virulent Bowels, I believe). Or some of the resist magic merits from the same.

                  In my mage game? We had one obfuscate 3 vampire tear up two different mages - one with matter 4, one with death 4. We even had the death specialist immune to obfuscate with an improvised spell (the mage won the clash), but stellar stealth rolls meant the vampire got in there and stomped the mage in a grapple. Both mages ended up bloodbound in a cellar - for more drama ensuing. There is a chance in the next game that our acanthus is going to have a battle with some vamp heavy in fortitude, and I think trickiness is going to be more useful than any agg damage.

                  Theoretically, sitting in my armchair, I know how to prevent a mugging. When it happens, I hope the muggers work out what I have planned for them, and are glad to go along with it.
                  That's is exactly what I meant and why I proposed example scenarios to let the dice speaks. I mean, with celerity for the interrupt (that could calls for a clash of wills so that it is at least a play at par) a frenzy vampire with a little of vigor could annihilate a mage: damage for the bite plus vigor plus vitae loss.

                  With resilence is possible to reflexively avoid res+1 lethal damages or res agg. Damages for those devastating spells. Even fireball or sunlight created by the mage. Without considering Juggernaut Gait.

                  With interrupt and dominate/Majesty you can take control of the mage. Yes, it's true also the opposite but, as I said, is play at par at least.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post

                    Versus wise depends on the scenario, a mage could engulf a vampire with fire using the Forces Arcana and call it a day,
                    Here is where Resilence come in. I mean, I'm not saying the vampire is better. I'm just saying that he can stands and it is at par and depending on the build.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by hoodedclaw View Post
                      Honestly, I don't see this disparity that is getting so much attention. Yes, if the mage has plenty of time to prepare and everything goes his way and all the arcana fall into place etc; sure. Odd game you are playing, though, where the mage gets to plan a slow hit on the vamp without any plot complications.

                      Much is made of the unmaking spells, for instance. Instakill buttons are scary. But to get there, a mage needs a) 5 dots in an arcanum and b) 5 dots in gnosis. A comparable leech is scary as hell. Even before any disciplines are added, a vampire with 5 BP in frenzy can add 15 to any physical dicepool. One sniper bullet out of the mage's sensory range/thrown barstool in range and he is likely toast - even for a vampire with no dots in the relevant abilities. Or 15 dots to sneak up (or merely 10 if you rule the current frenzy supercedes the ability to be a stealthy predator) before adding any natural skills. If you get close enough for the grapple, that +15 dice is v. likely to give you an exceptional success - which means an additional +5 damage due to blood loss if you apply the feed move. Depending on how you take the wording, a 5BP vampire should get an additional +5 to either stamina or all withstand ratings in frenzy. Even an unprepared vampire in a physical confrontation is terrifying, and almost certainly lethal, to most mages if they get within grabbing distance. And this is all before you apply disciplines, ghoul hordes etc.

                      Of course, if the mage is sniping from safety, the vampire might die. Vice versa, too, though. If the sniper rifle from a helicopter doesn't take your fancy, how about the level 2 cruac ritual that kills any mortal at any distance by exploding their bowels (Shed the Virulent Bowels, I believe). Or some of the resist magic merits from the same.

                      In my mage game? We had one obfuscate 3 vampire tear up two different mages - one with matter 4, one with death 4. We even had the death specialist immune to obfuscate with an improvised spell (the mage won the clash), but stellar stealth rolls meant the vampire got in there and stomped the mage in a grapple. Both mages ended up bloodbound in a cellar - for more drama ensuing. There is a chance in the next game that our acanthus is going to have a battle with some vamp heavy in fortitude, and I think trickiness is going to be more useful than any agg damage.

                      Theoretically, sitting in my armchair, I know how to prevent a mugging. When it happens, I hope the muggers work out what I have planned for them, and are glad to go along with it.
                      One vampire beat 2 mages adept mages, one with death 4 who was immune to the obfuscate. Then they werent played properly or really really badly. Death veiling means how did the vampire even spot them? The matter mage should have had at least double digit armor, and if not why not? Why wasnt the death mage made of shadow? Grappling that is hard.

                      Yep, they were played really badly my friend. It doesnt take mastery to be scary as mages. Forces 2 negates all bullets, knifes, grapples, via shielding vs kinetic energy. And thats 2 dots.

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                      • #41
                        Also you can cast during a grapple, regardless of whether you win the roll or not.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                          Also you can cast during a grapple, regardless of whether you win the roll or not.
                          I think there is a negative three penalty if you lose the grapple. Don't quote me on that, though.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Ever Professional View Post

                            I think there is a negative three penalty if you lose the grapple. Don't quote me on that, though.
                            Yeah, that's right. Not all that big in the grand scheme of things. Just a spell factor and a half, and if the vamp's right there...

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by totalgit View Post
                              Death veiling means how did the vampire even spot them?
                              It's possible they didn't have death veiling up.

                              The matter mage should have had at least double digit armor, and if not why not?

                              Forces 2 negates all bullets, knifes, grapples, via shielding vs kinetic energy. And thats 2 dots.
                              Matter and Forces armor do almost the same thing, providing General Armor based on your Arcana with some side benefits. The Matter Mage would have 4 General Armor if they activated it.

                              'Forces Armor disperses the energy of attacks before they can reach the mage, much like a force field.
                              Forces Armor applies the mage’s full Forces rating as general armor, applicable against all damaging physical attacks and the automatic damage from fire and electricity. It has no effect on mental or psychic attacks.'

                              'Matter Armor changes the properties of the matter surrounding the mage to protect her; her clothes solidify to repel a fist, a bullet softens to lessen the impact, or ambient moisture condenses to quench a fireball.
                              Matter Armor applies the mage’s full Matter rating as general armor, applicable against all damaging physical attacks. It is immune to Armor Piercing. Matter Armor has no effect on mental or psychic attacks.'

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by nofather View Post

                                It's possible they didn't have death veiling up.



                                Matter and Forces armor do almost the same thing, providing General Armor based on your Arcana with some side benefits. The Matter Mage would have 4 General Armor if they activated it.

                                'Forces Armor disperses the energy of attacks before they can reach the mage, much like a force field.
                                Forces Armor applies the mage’s full Forces rating as general armor, applicable against all damaging physical attacks and the automatic damage from fire and electricity. It has no effect on mental or psychic attacks.'

                                'Matter Armor changes the properties of the matter surrounding the mage to protect her; her clothes solidify to repel a fist, a bullet softens to lessen the impact, or ambient moisture condenses to quench a fireball.
                                Matter Armor applies the mage’s full Matter rating as general armor, applicable against all damaging physical attacks. It is immune to Armor Piercing. Matter Armor has no effect on mental or psychic attacks.'
                                Im talking about forces shielding practice, not mage armor.

                                Most commonly with the Practice of Shielding (••), a spell may grant protection from forces under the Arcanum’s purview.
                                These spells usually provide blanket immunity to natural or mundane phenomena
                                its a common mistake, but creative thaum makes it possible to get blanket protection from kinetic force.

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