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  • #76
    The issue with custom mechanics is that Vampires have custom devotions, then it's all pointless.

    Let's look at the Arcana and see what problem powers Mages have, and let's restrict things to creation traits for now. I will include a CT note on "things this arcana can probably do" to aknowledge them, but not otherwise consider them.

    DEATH
    - Level 1: There isn't much here, but Focused Mage Sight (Death) allows the Mage to scrutinize Vampires. If a Vampire is leaving corpses/ghosts, then they are leaving tractable clues.
    - Level 2: Nothing of note. The Mage can hide their trace.
    - Level 3: Direct Damage comes in here. They also get a gtfo via Twilight. Most importantly, they get tons of Ghostly and Zombie minions.
    - CT: Level 2 can probably CoW against most Kindred Powers and Invisibility vs them. Can empower zombies as well as ghosts at 3.

    FATE
    - Level 1: Some nice dice adders if the Mage isn't rushed and the ability to make good decisions / find Vampires. Can also automatically detect supernatural mind control.
    - Level 2: You get the all powerful Exceptional Luck, which imo should be a Rote on almost every mage. An Apprentice of Fate also has as many social merits as they want, and those merits are expendable. Can Shield against all Aoe and Mind Control on the same spell. Fools Rush In is one of the best dice adder in the game.
    - Level 3: Rote on Tap, some nice debuffs. Monkey's Paw is a no-Withstand curse.

    FORCES
    - Level 1: The ability to tune in on internet/cellphone/etc is not to be underestimated.
    - Level 2: Control Fire is always solid. Invisibility is here, as is Zoom In, part of a "witness everything" combo. Transmission is not to be underestimated.
    - Level 3: Call Lightning is a two hit kill against most things. Various telekinesis style powers are here.
    - CT: Can probably illusion cameras, etc to falsify evidence and frame the Kindred.

    LIFE
    - Level 1: Perception boosts are nice.
    - Level 2: Lure/Repel is a good social (de)buff. Control Instincts has a lot of good uses.
    - Level 3: Damage and Defrading the Form probably won't work on vampires. That said, the Mage gets Attribute Buffs and Animal Mods and Healing.

    MATTER
    - Level 1: Can't suffocate a Vampire to death, thankfully. Can get 8-again on rolls to use something, or skip the roll all together and get straight successes when operating a device. Probably lowest hanging autostake fruit.
    - Level 2: Not too much here. Illusioning cameras is nice. Shaping can make instant pits or even trap someone depending on how the ST rules it.
    - Level 3: Alter Conductivity can melt neighborhoods into slag or kill everyone in it. Shrink/Grow has some interesting uses. State Change can make solid air prisons with no Withstand.
    Last edited by SoulGambit; 09-04-2017, 03:34 PM.

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    • #77
      MIND
      - Level 1: Lots of good information-gathering powers here. Knowing nature, goals, surface emotions, etc. It's Auspex 1-2. Mage Sight can pick out Mind Control.
      - Level 2: Powerful social buffs to build and exploit trust. You also get Dominate 1-2 and Auspex 4. Can Shield against mental powers. You also get all of Obfuscate, basically.
      - Level 3: Attribute / Skill buffs. Can summon and control Goetia (Emphemeral). Instant sleep powers are combat enders. You get deep mind reading and memory alteration.

      PRIME
      - Level 1: Discern Truth is how Mages pierce obfuscate and find shapeshifted Vampires. It also perfectly detect lies, which completely changes the social game. Supernal Vision lets them pick vampires out of the crowd.
      - Level 2: Cloak Mage nature from, e.g. Auspex.
      - Level 3: Platonic Form is good general utility.

      SPACE
      - Level 1: Correspondance can get a LOT of information gathering. Isolation can shut down a Kindred's ability to feed. Locate Object is a way to find and track vampires. The Outward and Inward Eye is Bashit nuts insane. Combine with Zoom In for fun.
      - Level 2: Scry and Die comes in to play. Breaking Bonds makes it near impossible to incarcerate the Mage. Lying Maps can keep a Kindred running through the streets at noon instead of finding safety.
      - Level 3: Can just Ban a Vampire until they hit Torpor with nothing to do. Teleportation, even reflexive hit and run teleport is possible.

      SPIRIT
      - Level 1: Nothing too dangerous here. Not a lot of intersection between vamps and spirits.
      - Level 2: All kinds of uses for Command Spirit.
      - Level 3: Spirit minions, go! So many uses for this.

      TIME
      - Level 1: This is The Problem information gathering wise. Postcognition and Divination means that the Mage knows the vampire is coming and can investigate what the vampire was doing.
      - Level 2: Veil of Moments protects against conditions in general.
      - Level 3: Acceleration is a great Dodge booster, allows for interrupt actions. Temporal Summoning is effectively a one cast disable that for some reason doesn't have Withstand.
      Last edited by SoulGambit; 09-04-2017, 03:57 PM.

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      • #78
        Let's start with a Social Mage. You want Fate 2 on a social Mage for the free merits and Prime 1 for Discern Truth, period. After that you want Mind, Life, or Forces 2. Time 1 for divination/postcognition is probably the best single dot bang for buck arcana from there if we have the luxury.

        Acanthus with Fate 2, Time 1, Prime 1, Mind or Life 2
        Mastigos with Mind 2, Space 1, Fate 2, Prime 1
        Obrimos with Forces 2, Fate 2, Prime 1, Time 1
        Thyrsus with Life 2, Spirit 1, Fate 2, Prime 1
        Moros with Death 3, Matter 1, Fate 2

        Nixing Prime for Mind 3 or Forces 3 is a solid option. Exceptional Luck would be a Rote on all of them. I also recommend either Shifting the Odds / Fools Rush In as Rites or doing something like a high Shadow Name.

        Any Mage Specific merits that should be considered? Destiny is ever present and ever op.

        P.s. I don't remember all of the opposing arcana off the top so if I made one if the paths start with it, sorry.
        Last edited by SoulGambit; 09-04-2017, 04:49 PM.

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        • #79
          So lets set some broad goals.

          Challenge #1: Convince [Target] to allow access to [Item or Location] when it is their job not to.

          Challenge #2: Gain an ally and business partner in a venture. It is in their mutual best interests, but they specifically do not trust you. Hostile starting impressions. Get the best deal.

          Challenge #3: A cop or FBI agent has a personal vendetta against you and a small cell of people willing to listen. This either is or is about to be a Hunter Cell with their sights on you. Convince them to drop the case without alerting the broader authorities further.

          Challenge #4: A small group of mortals have Seen Too Much. Take care of them. Bonus round: how could you handle larger scale Masquerade Breaches?

          Challenge #5: You want to apply social pressure to destroy a rival's assets out of petty revenge. How do you do it?

          For each of those, how do you deal with a Vampire opposing you or doing those things to you?

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          • #80
            i thought about it, and probably the OP and other people who might be interested in crossovers will find this topic useful for the purpose of vampires vs mages...
            actual game and fight between vampires and mages

            http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...-session/page3

            keep in mind that on that particular case, wizards had all the time to prepare and vampires were almost caught by surprise... but still, it can demonstrate how dangerous mages can be if they decide to go to war.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by SoulGambit View Post
              Let's start with a Social Mage. You want Fate 2 on a social Mage for the free merits and Prime 1 for Discern Truth, period. After that you want Mind, Life, or Forces 2. Time 1 for divination/postcognition is probably the best single dot bang for buck arcana from there if we have the luxury.

              Acanthus with Fate 2, Time 1, Prime 1, Mind or Life 2
              Mastigos with Mind 2, Space 1, Fate 2, Prime 1
              Obrimos with Forces 2, Fate 2, Prime 1, Time 1
              Thyrsus with Life 2, Spirit 1, Fate 2, Prime 1
              Moros with Death 3, Matter 1, Fate 2

              Nixing Prime for Mind 3 or Forces 3 is a solid option. Exceptional Luck would be a Rote on all of them. I also recommend either Shifting the Odds / Fools Rush In as Rites or doing something like a high Shadow Name.

              Any Mage Specific merits that should be considered? Destiny is ever present and ever op.

              P.s. I don't remember all of the opposing arcana off the top so if I made one if the paths start with it, sorry.


              This kind of emphasizes the reason why I don't like the mindset that goes into these sort of threads.

              People take character building from a really meta perspective.

              A mage isn't going to go "well, I want some better merits, so I better become an Acanthus and learn Fate 2 before doing anything else."

              They're going to find an arcana that fits their interests and passions and study it.

              They don't think "Well, obscure fighting style #27 gives me 9-again on fighting with chopsticks, so..." they go pick an art based on their needs and wants, like a self-defense class if that's what they need, or a more authentic martial art if they're interested in the culture and tradition or whatever.

              This is the concept of white-room being applied to character building itself. If you have people min-maxing and trying to build the perfect combat monster of any splat, it's easy as hell to break the Storyteller system. People interested in that are probably better served playing other games. CofD just isn't balanced for that kind of play.

              I'm not trying to say "you're having fun wrong" here so much as "you might have more fun playing something else, if this is what you enjoy"

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              • #82
                Maina Assuming that Magic and the abilities of magic is widespread and Mages know that Fate can spawn important resources and allies essentially from thin air it does, in fact, make sense for engage who wants to leverage magic to gain allies/resources/etc would pursue that Magic in character.

                If I, out of character, want to play a serendipitous Mage who is friend to everyone via magic then I will pick the Magic that does it.

                It only takes on a meta feel in this thread because we are doing a bunch of characters and only fleshing them out just enough to serve our purposes. In a real game we would take those same numbers and flesh out a character and it wouldn't feel meta at all.
                Last edited by SoulGambit; 09-04-2017, 08:28 PM.

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                • #83
                  I think I've found the answer to the question of "X vs Y" and the answer is simply "which ever splat the players are using"

                  I'm planning to pit my players against a mage manipulating everything in the city to the point of pulling the town into it's own pocket dimension, and I'm betting dollars to donuts the vampires will win somehow, because they're my players and I want them to have fun.

                  sorry that I sound rather fun-police-y but that's really just how I see things.

                  Also if one is playing a multi-splat game and somehow the players are now fighting each other so that is the context of a 'X vs Y" debate I feel the need to ask how the gm allowed that to occur

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by emmens View Post

                    Also if one is playing a multi-splat game and somehow the players are now fighting each other so that is the context of a 'X vs Y" debate I feel the need to ask how the gm allowed that to occur
                    'Cause it's a horror game and mistrust and betrayal can be well-used themes with a good group. Not every party is composed of True Companions. Sometimes its an alliance of convenience.


                    A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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                    • #85
                      Mortal Challenges
                      #1: Sympathetic + Fast-Talking 4 + a decent persuasion/subterfuge roll should be able to get in.
                      #2 Need to do some Investigating to learn the subject's vice and use it to boost impressions. Then as above.
                      #3 Here the mortal struggles. Blackmail and forcing doors are immediate options, but very dangerous.
                      #4 Really got nothing but coming alongside to support or intimidation or murder.
                      #5 Need some relevant Allies or Status or use social rolls / blackmail on the group directly.

                      Mage
                      #1 Any can whip up Allies [that security company] if they have time and use Fools Rush In for better social rolls. Mind can Dominate the security or emotional urge them away or Incognito Presence to get the thing. Life can either control instincts, lure/Repel the social system, or force an unfortunately tomes bowl movement. Forces 2+ can just use invisibility or take an alarm elsewhere, while shutting off any electronic alarms. Death 3, Mind 3, Spirit 3 can send in an ephemeral entity.
                      #2 Fools Rush In boosts impressions to a usable level, as does Lure/Repel and that Mind Spell. In this case you want to use Magic to buff your mundane rolls because if you use magic to get this ally that takes up a control slot.
                      #3 Killing him would be easy, but may attract suspicion. You are back to acting like a mortal with (significant!) Buffs unless you want to tie up control slots.
                      #4 So, memory alteration doesn't come in until Mind 3, and even then it isnt lasting. Time 3 could rewind the offending scene. You are better off discrediting the mortals, intimidating them, and moving on.
                      #5 Allies [everything] 5 should do the trick. Alternatively, choose a curse, any relevant social curse. You won't have to use it for long.

                      That said, a social Mage should expect to hit a lot of Wisdom Breaking Points.

                      Vampires
                      #1 Dominate 1, Majesty 2, Obfuscate 1, Protean 3, Celerity 1, Nightmare 1, Nughmare 2, Nightmare 3 all potentially solve this problem.
                      #2 Blood Bonds and/or Majesty are built for this. Nightmare 3 can do it. Auspex can assist with mundane social rolls. Vampires are made for this.
                      #3 Dominate 1 or 3, Majesty 2, Nightmare 3 and a Blood Bond can solve this problem. Be careful with Blood Bonds! It could backfire and make him obsessed.
                      #4 Dominate 1 can rewrite their short term memories. Majesty 2 or Nightmare 3 can feed them a story, make them seem insane, or otherwise help discredit them. Relevant allies can help.
                      #5 Need relevant allies. Dominate 3, Majesty 2+, Nightmare 3, and Blood Bonds can turn their social structures against them. Auspex will know all the weak points even at 1, though 2 will help exploit them. Animalism gets a special mention because there are few business an intense roach infestation won't shut down.

                      Note that Auspex is a powerful support tool for social and would aid any of the above, especially supplementing the mortal strategies. An Auspex social character needs to be a good social character, whole Majesty / Dominate can buy up Allies instead of fast talk and sympathetic (I would still get Sympathetic).

                      -----

                      So what if a Vampire is applying social power to a Mage? Direct supernatural influence will ping on Mage Sight, but they won't be able to trace the magic back to the Vampire easily. The Vampire wants to work as far away and indirectly as possible. Majesty user's and Nightmare user's will screw themselves. Dominate (thoroughly erase memories), Obfuscate, Auspex, and Animalism is the way to go.

                      That said, if the scenario is a Mage being tee' d off at a Vampire socially, they can just drop the hammer and there isn't much that the Vampire can do to stop it, especially if the Mage doesn't care about Wisdom loss. Vampires with Cruac 1 can always find out who is messing with them. Auspex 2 or 3 *might* point the Vampire in the right direction.

                      Both work on offense. Mages have better defense in the form of Mage Sight and Shielding Spells. Really, it comes down to which one targeted the other first. Even then, if the other found out i would be a bitter fight until one died or there was nothing left.
                      Last edited by SoulGambit; 09-06-2017, 11:13 AM.

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                      • #86
                        So! Let's do Combat, because that is everyone's favorite theory field.

                        Generally speaking, combat vampires will have Protean 3 (+Swarm Form), Obfuscate 3, Celerity 3, or Celerity 1 + Resilience/Vigor 2

                        Mages will come from one of three schools of thought.
                        A) Combat Magic. This character will probably get Shadow Name 3 + Themed Cabal and/or some combat spells as Rotes.
                        B) All the Buffs.
                        C) Who cares about Paradox?

                        Going BP 2 / Gnosis 2 is almost definately the best investment for a character, but I will be ignoring that. I am also going to ignore Professional Training 5 for Rote combat dice, but not Destiny as it is a Mage Specific benefit. I will also ignore minions like ghouls and ghosts and spirits, as that is a different catagory.

                        Mage' s tools in a white room
                        - Exceptional Luck can be used Reflexively to either curse an opponent (if you can get above their Withstand) or, more usefully, bless yourself with Steadfast and +1 (or more) Potency so your spells automatically work.
                        - Direct Damage is dealing Bashing and, more importantly, inflicting tilts. You need it to be a Rote to be effective at Arcana 3. That will let you Instant Cast, Perception Range, and inflict a Tilt without risking Paradox. You deal 3B base and can probably take -4 for another +2B, or with Steadfast -8 for +4B. Willpower will allow for another +1B or +2B. That will stun everyone who doesn't have Resilience.
                        - Forces can deal Agg with a lighter, probably 3-5 agg (an Inferno will deal too much collateral in most instances) per turn.
                        - Forces 3 during a thunderstorm can deal straight 10B.
                        - Space 3, Matter 2/3 can permanently trap someone. The only real counterplay is Protean 1 or Vigor 2 for matter and... There simply isn't a counter for Space. Time 3 can completely disable someone by turning them into an infant. Mental Domination and Sleep of the Just work at Mind 2 and 3, respectively.

                        If a Mage uses Yantras, a Vampire can probably justify using a Celerity Interrupt. What this means is that some starting Mages can win some of the time if they get off their spells without Yantras (Exceptional Luck rote is neigh essential) or against Vampires without Celerity even if they do. If a Vampire has any Anti-Magic merits and/or has Giant Size things get trickier.

                        A buffmage is going to be a lot trickier to analyze since there are multiple moving parts. First, a Mage can *not* walk around with obvious magic like attributes above 5 or constant acceleration, and in combat a buff you put up means you didn't spend that action disabling all of your opponents. I'll ruminate on what combination (s) of buffs are available at creation.

                        EDIT:

                        Having thought about it, in a white room two characters see each other type scenario, the Vampire with Celerity wins against lower level Mages most if not all the time.

                        Let's say the Mage goes first. Either they are using Yantras, on which case the Vampire can Celerity Interrupt to dodge out of the way / be invisible for the spell, or they don't. A Mage going for a one hit kill will probably Steadfast themselves and not use a Yantra, but it doesn't matter. The Vampire interrupts their turn no matter what they are doing to initiate a grapple. Once in a grapple, the Mage can not effectively use Yantras or cast without them. If the Grapple fails, then the Mage probably wins. Now a counterplay here for the Mage is to use Exceptional Luck to reflexively debuff the Vampire, inflicting Leg Wrack x2. The issue is, the Mage will probably only have Fate 2 and if they use any form of Yantra the Vampire can interrupt *that* instead of the other one.

                        If the Vampire wins, they use Celerity to launch a surprise attack, during which they can not be seen and thus can not be targeted by perception spells.

                        The question becomes, can the Mage just brute force the Grapple directly? With the Mage having Destiny? It's very possible they could just overpower the Vampire, break free, then cast their combat ending spell. If they won initiative, that would be it. If they didn't, then they probably need to do it twice.
                        Last edited by SoulGambit; 09-07-2017, 10:21 AM.

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                        • #87
                          Double post boo
                          Last edited by SoulGambit; 09-06-2017, 04:40 PM.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by SoulGambit View Post
                            So! Let's do Combat, because that is everyone's favorite theory field.

                            Generally speaking, combat vampires will have Protean 3 (+Swarm Form), Obfuscate 3, Celerity 3, or Celerity 1 + Resilience/Vigor 2

                            Mages will come from one of three schools of thought.
                            A) Combat Magic. This character will probably get Shadow Name 3 + Themed Cabal and/or some combat spells as Rotes.
                            B) All the Buffs.
                            C) Who cares about Paradox?

                            Going BP 2 / Gnosis 2 is almost definately the best investment for a character, but I will be ignoring that. I am also going to ignore Professional Training 5 for Rote combat dice, but not Destiny as it is a Mage Specific benefit. I will also ignore minions like ghouls and ghosts and spirits, as that is a different catagory.

                            Mage' s tools in a white room
                            - Exceptional Luck can be used Reflexively to either curse an opponent (if you can get above their Withstand) or, more usefully, bless yourself with Steadfast and +1 (or more) Potency so your spells automatically work.
                            - Direct Damage is dealing Bashing and, more importantly, inflicting tilts. You need it to be a Rote to be effective at Arcana 3. That will let you Instant Cast, Perception Range, and inflict a Tilt without risking Paradox. You deal 3B base and can probably take -4 for another +2B, or with Steadfast -8 for +4B. Willpower will allow for another +1B or +2B. That will stun everyone who doesn't have Resilience.
                            - Forces can deal Agg with a lighter, probably 3-5 agg (an Inferno will deal too much collateral in most instances) per turn.
                            - Forces 3 during a thunderstorm can deal straight 10B.
                            - Space 3, Matter 2/3 can permanently trap someone. The only real counterplay is Protean 1 or Vigor 2 for matter and... There simply isn't a counter for Space. Time 3 can completely disable someone by turning them into an infant. Mental Domination and Sleep of the Just work at Mind 2 and 3, respectively.

                            If a Mage uses Yantras, a Vampire can probably justify using a Celerity Interrupt. What this means is that some starting Mages can win some of the time if they get off their spells without Yantras (Exceptional Luck rote is neigh essential) or against Vampires without Celerity even if they do. If a Vampire has any Anti-Magic merits and/or has Giant Size things get trickier.

                            A buffmage is going to be a lot trickier to analyze since there are multiple moving parts. First, a Mage can *not* walk around with obvious magic like attributes above 5 or constant acceleration, and in combat a buff you put up means you didn't spend that action disabling all of your opponents. I'll ruminate on what combination (s) of buffs are available at creation.

                            EDIT:

                            Having thought about it, in a white room two characters see each other type scenario, the Vampire with Celerity wins against lower level Mages most if not all the time.

                            Let's say the Mage goes first. Either they are using Yantras, on which case the Vampire can Celerity Interrupt to dodge out of the way / be invisible for the spell, or they don't. A Mage going for a one hit kill will probably Steadfast themselves and not use a Yantra, but it doesn't matter. The Vampire interrupts their turn no matter what they are doing to initiate a grapple. Once in a grapple, the Mage can not effectively use Yantras or cast without them. If the Grapple fails, then the Mage probably wins. Now a counterplay here for the Mage is to use Exceptional Luck to reflexively debuff the Vampire, inflicting Leg Wrack x2. The issue is, the Mage will probably only have Fate 2 and if they use any form of Yantra the Vampire can interrupt *that* instead of the other one.

                            If the Vampire wins, they use Celerity to launch a surprise attack, during which they can not be seen and thus can not be targeted by perception spells.

                            The question becomes, can the Mage just brute force the Grapple directly? With the Mage having Destiny? It's very possible they could just overpower the Vampire, break free, then cast their combat ending spell. If they won initiative, that would be it. If they didn't, then they probably need to do it twice.
                            This is helpful but, can you also make a comparison between middle (Bp 5 Gnosis 5) and high (Bp 8 gnosis 8) character?

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                            • #89
                              Best counter for celerity is probably a reflexive use of Exceptional Luck to hex their combat pool.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by SoulGambit View Post
                                So! Let's do Combat, because that is everyone's favorite theory field.

                                Generally speaking, combat vampires will have Protean 3 (+Swarm Form), Obfuscate 3, Celerity 3, or Celerity 1 + Resilience/Vigor 2

                                Mages will come from one of three schools of thought.
                                A) Combat Magic. This character will probably get Shadow Name 3 + Themed Cabal and/or some combat spells as Rotes.
                                B) All the Buffs.
                                C) Who cares about Paradox?

                                Going BP 2 / Gnosis 2 is almost definately the best investment for a character, but I will be ignoring that. I am also going to ignore Professional Training 5 for Rote combat dice, but not Destiny as it is a Mage Specific benefit. I will also ignore minions like ghouls and ghosts and spirits, as that is a different catagory.

                                Mage' s tools in a white room
                                - Exceptional Luck can be used Reflexively to either curse an opponent (if you can get above their Withstand) or, more usefully, bless yourself with Steadfast and +1 (or more) Potency so your spells automatically work.
                                - Direct Damage is dealing Bashing and, more importantly, inflicting tilts. You need it to be a Rote to be effective at Arcana 3. That will let you Instant Cast, Perception Range, and inflict a Tilt without risking Paradox. You deal 3B base and can probably take -4 for another +2B, or with Steadfast -8 for +4B. Willpower will allow for another +1B or +2B. That will stun everyone who doesn't have Resilience.
                                - Forces can deal Agg with a lighter, probably 3-5 agg (an Inferno will deal too much collateral in most instances) per turn.
                                - Forces 3 during a thunderstorm can deal straight 10B.
                                - Space 3, Matter 2/3 can permanently trap someone. The only real counterplay is Protean 1 or Vigor 2 for matter and... There simply isn't a counter for Space. Time 3 can completely disable someone by turning them into an infant. Mental Domination and Sleep of the Just work at Mind 2 and 3, respectively.

                                If a Mage uses Yantras, a Vampire can probably justify using a Celerity Interrupt. What this means is that some starting Mages can win some of the time if they get off their spells without Yantras (Exceptional Luck rote is neigh essential) or against Vampires without Celerity even if they do. If a Vampire has any Anti-Magic merits and/or has Giant Size things get trickier.

                                A buffmage is going to be a lot trickier to analyze since there are multiple moving parts. First, a Mage can *not* walk around with obvious magic like attributes above 5 or constant acceleration, and in combat a buff you put up means you didn't spend that action disabling all of your opponents. I'll ruminate on what combination (s) of buffs are available at creation.

                                EDIT:

                                Having thought about it, in a white room two characters see each other type scenario, the Vampire with Celerity wins against lower level Mages most if not all the time.

                                Let's say the Mage goes first. Either they are using Yantras, on which case the Vampire can Celerity Interrupt to dodge out of the way / be invisible for the spell, or they don't. A Mage going for a one hit kill will probably Steadfast themselves and not use a Yantra, but it doesn't matter. The Vampire interrupts their turn no matter what they are doing to initiate a grapple. Once in a grapple, the Mage can not effectively use Yantras or cast without them. If the Grapple fails, then the Mage probably wins. Now a counterplay here for the Mage is to use Exceptional Luck to reflexively debuff the Vampire, inflicting Leg Wrack x2. The issue is, the Mage will probably only have Fate 2 and if they use any form of Yantra the Vampire can interrupt *that* instead of the other one.

                                If the Vampire wins, they use Celerity to launch a surprise attack, during which they can not be seen and thus can not be targeted by perception spells.

                                The question becomes, can the Mage just brute force the Grapple directly? With the Mage having Destiny? It's very possible they could just overpower the Vampire, break free, then cast their combat ending spell. If they won initiative, that would be it. If they didn't, then they probably need to do it twice.
                                Wait a moment here, so the vampire gets to spend exps on getting other disciplines (he has an extra +6ish?) but the mage doesnt get the same exps to raise his gnosis and arcana to 4? Totally fair, NOT

                                The best counter to celerity is either Time 3's acceleration so its a clash or some shielding spell that makes whatever the vampire tries to do moot.

                                Having stats above 5 is not obvious magic until used, and then only triggers dissonance after the scene which might lower a stat by 1 or so, you can totally walk about with stats above 5 (the nerdy thin armed mage still looks nerdy and thin armed until he pushes that car over)
                                , acceleration is another matter, it depends if you think walking at normal speed under acceleration looks funny or not.

                                Already this white room was flawed by unequal exps, start by giving both sides a number of exps they can spend and go from there next time.
                                Last edited by totalgit; 09-07-2017, 08:12 PM.

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