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  • #91
    totalgit Those were or, representing different potential characters. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear. Really, Celerity is all that matters, though. Distraction from Swarm Form *might* be able to help. Protean 3 might even counter all non-Space, non-Mind, non-Forces instant kills presented.

    All characters presented are creation with 0xp.

    Physical Attributes above 5 are explicitly obvious on sight. I seriously question a character's ability to move at *precisely* half speed, including biological functions like breathing, nonstop.

    Custom CT is not being considered because it varies too much from table to table. You can't Shielding against grapple for reasons already discussed. Mage Armor is for general attacks, not shielding spells.

    Marcus EXP values are more useful of a measure than Gnosis/BP.
    Last edited by SoulGambit; 09-08-2017, 12:36 AM.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by SoulGambit View Post
      totalgit Those were or, representing different potential characters. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear. Really, Celerity is all that matters, though. Distraction from Swarm Form *might* be able to help. Protean 3 might even counter all non-Space, non-Mind, non-Forces instant kills presented.

      All characters presented are creation with 0xp.

      Physical Attributes above 5 are explicitly obvious on sight. I seriously question a character's ability to move at *precisely* half speed, including biological functions like breathing, nonstop.

      Custom CT is not being considered because it varies too much from table to table. You can't Shielding against grapple for reasons already discussed. Mage Armor is for general attacks, not shielding spells.

      Marcus EXP values are more useful of a measure than Gnosis/BP.
      Lets say 50/100 XP

      I mean an elder and an Ancient/Matusaleah level

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Marcus View Post

        Lets say 50/100 XP

        I mean an elder and an Ancient/Matusaleah level
        Problem is, with that kind of power level white room are pointless. Vampires won't even be able to touch elder mages between their magic armor, clash of wills abilities, and ability to counter basically almost all of the disciplines.

        To break it down to u:

        Elder acanthus are chess masters, and their chess table is time and fate around them. They won't ever, ever be ambushed or surprised and will almost always act first in a fight. Fate allows them also to clash of wills automatically against any mind power trying to control them. The only way an elder vampire would ever be able to ambush or attack an elder acanthus is by extremely powerful devotions that can mess with space and time, and counter the mage ability to foresee the future and simply control fate and reality around himself.

        Mastigos_ vampires won't even ever find or touch an elder mastigos. Elder mastigos will probably act with puppets, minions and messengers. High space mean he can cast from distance from the safety of his sanctum, and mind means he can simply travel in Astral form or read the mind of his enemies and mess with them like a puppeteer. Not to mention high space allows you to remove yourself entirely from reality or banish enemies beyond salvation. Yeah. Good luck finding him. He is an untouchable professor Xavier.

        Obrimos_ forces means fire and destruction and aggravated damage that can instantly kill an entire coterie of elder vampires. He can also simply become immune to physical damage with spells like turn momentum or creating an invisible force field around him. Not to mention, high prime? Have fun creating all the artifacts magical armor, imbued item or magical weapons you want, and also infinite mana or mana springs.

        Moros: vampire won't find him or hurt him unless he can travel in the realm of the dead or touch ghost since he can simply go around invisible and untouchable. Even if he finds him, good luck defeating his army of the dead and ghosts that will haunt u from twilight. Oh, he can also banish u in the twilight and never let u come back or make a ghost possess u so...also, good luck piercing his 5/5 bulletproof permanent armor on top of his magical enhanced weaponry and defense system...

        Thyrsus_ physically will probably be as strong as an elder vampire fighter, and can clash of wills against all body tilts or harm. He will probably have permanent buff that give him high defense a high health and regeneration. Also spirit so... Unless vampire can umbra travel and fight against rank 4 spirits that surround the wizard as bodyguard, he is no match. Also, spirit means he will probably wear a shittons of amulets and fetishes that make him a formidable opponent.

        I can already hear you typing on the keyboards lashing out... "yeah, BUT they can do that ONLY if they are prepared and know what's coming for them!!"

        Well, short answer is.. No

        Saying that elder mages will hypothetically walk into a white room unprepared or be ambushed in their sanctum by non awakened powers is like saying that an elder vampire will simply walk out the window of his haven in the middle of a* hot summer day because he like his skin dark.
        Mages can cast almost semi permanent buff and enhanced spells. Even if they have to keep them casting, some extra reach will have them last for months or days.
        There is absolutely no in game reason or mechanic that would reasonably force them to, unless they re in a very specific situation of "no fire zone" or they simply want to die.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by SoulGambit View Post
          So! Let's do Combat, because that is everyone's favorite theory field.

          Generally speaking, combat vampires will have Protean 3 (+Swarm Form), Obfuscate 3, Celerity 3, or Celerity 1 + Resilience/Vigor 2

          Mages will come from one of three schools of thought.
          A) Combat Magic. This character will probably get Shadow Name 3 + Themed Cabal and/or some combat spells as Rotes.
          B) All the Buffs.
          C) Who cares about Paradox?

          Going BP 2 / Gnosis 2 is almost definately the best investment for a character, but I will be ignoring that. I am also going to ignore Professional Training 5 for Rote combat dice, but not Destiny as it is a Mage Specific benefit. I will also ignore minions like ghouls and ghosts and spirits, as that is a different catagory.

          Mage' s tools in a white room
          - Exceptional Luck can be used Reflexively to either curse an opponent (if you can get above their Withstand) or, more usefully, bless yourself with Steadfast and +1 (or more) Potency so your spells automatically work.
          - Direct Damage is dealing Bashing and, more importantly, inflicting tilts. You need it to be a Rote to be effective at Arcana 3. That will let you Instant Cast, Perception Range, and inflict a Tilt without risking Paradox. You deal 3B base and can probably take -4 for another +2B, or with Steadfast -8 for +4B. Willpower will allow for another +1B or +2B. That will stun everyone who doesn't have Resilience.
          - Forces can deal Agg with a lighter, probably 3-5 agg (an Inferno will deal too much collateral in most instances) per turn.
          - Forces 3 during a thunderstorm can deal straight 10B.
          - Space 3, Matter 2/3 can permanently trap someone. The only real counterplay is Protean 1 or Vigor 2 for matter and... There simply isn't a counter for Space. Time 3 can completely disable someone by turning them into an infant. Mental Domination and Sleep of the Just work at Mind 2 and 3, respectively.

          If a Mage uses Yantras, a Vampire can probably justify using a Celerity Interrupt. What this means is that some starting Mages can win some of the time if they get off their spells without Yantras (Exceptional Luck rote is neigh essential) or against Vampires without Celerity even if they do. If a Vampire has any Anti-Magic merits and/or has Giant Size things get trickier.

          A buffmage is going to be a lot trickier to analyze since there are multiple moving parts. First, a Mage can *not* walk around with obvious magic like attributes above 5 or constant acceleration, and in combat a buff you put up means you didn't spend that action disabling all of your opponents. I'll ruminate on what combination (s) of buffs are available at creation.

          EDIT:

          Having thought about it, in a white room two characters see each other type scenario, the Vampire with Celerity wins against lower level Mages most if not all the time.

          Let's say the Mage goes first. Either they are using Yantras, on which case the Vampire can Celerity Interrupt to dodge out of the way / be invisible for the spell, or they don't. A Mage going for a one hit kill will probably Steadfast themselves and not use a Yantra, but it doesn't matter. The Vampire interrupts their turn no matter what they are doing to initiate a grapple. Once in a grapple, the Mage can not effectively use Yantras or cast without them. If the Grapple fails, then the Mage probably wins. Now a counterplay here for the Mage is to use Exceptional Luck to reflexively debuff the Vampire, inflicting Leg Wrack x2. The issue is, the Mage will probably only have Fate 2 and if they use any form of Yantra the Vampire can interrupt *that* instead of the other one.

          If the Vampire wins, they use Celerity to launch a surprise attack, during which they can not be seen and thus can not be targeted by perception spells.

          The question becomes, can the Mage just brute force the Grapple directly? With the Mage having Destiny? It's very possible they could just overpower the Vampire, break free, then cast their combat ending spell. If they won initiative, that would be it. If they didn't, then they probably need to do it twice.
          Wouldn't the best way of going about this be to have the mage cast Co-Location to a place that is in open sunlight? If the vampire grapples them, you are then touching and can reflexively send them out into open sunlight wherever it is you co-located to. If they don't, you can reflexively send yourself there and then start casting at them from the other location. This is something that generally works on anything that doesn't straight up one shot you before you can react (except other Space mages I guess).

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          • #95
            I usually see Elders at 100xp and Methuselahs at ST-Fiat xp.

            So. At 50/100xp, there are a LOT of build options I may not be considering. I will instead be looking at combinations Mages need to worry about and visa versa.

            Offhand, at 50xp I expect Gnosis 5 and a 5/4/2/2/2. I expect Space 2+, Prime 2+, and Fate 2+ to be included in that. Time 3+ would be the next benchmark, but most mages will pick their 5th dot and 4th dot for concept.

            At 100xp I expect a Mage to have Gnosis 6 and Arcana 5/5/4/3/3/2/2 that includes Time 4+, Space 3+, Mind/Death/Spirit 3+, Fate 2+, Prime 2+. I also highly recommend Forces 2+ but not everyone will have it.

            At this point, going to say that Hung Spell + Shifting Sands wins. There is no Vampiric answer and there is no counterplay that doesn't require knowing exactly how it works. I will also discount eat buffs, that is Quintessence causing megabytes tuned for the exact situation. If that happens, the Mage wins.

            - 50xp character will have 8 buffs on while still being able to cast without reach. That will include: Outward/Inward Eye, Pierce Deception, Supernal Veiling, Warding Gesture, Ward, and Veil Sympathy, Fools Rush In and Exceptional Luck (for Charmed + Steadfast)
            - 100xp character will have up to 15 buffs. They will include the above staples as well as Perfect Sympathy, Quantum Flux, Summoned Emphemeral, Enhanced Emphemeral, and three build specific buffs. Personally I would have Present as Part + Ban + Warding Gesture as an AoE on my sanctum.
            - Note that Mages get exponentially more powerful the more of them working together because of stacking buffs. We wont be considering team vs team right now.
            - Starting at Arcana 4/5, a Mage that can punch through Withstand wins, period. How is inconsequential.
            - The number of Withstandless save or suck spells increases.
            - A relevant Shadow Name 3 + Themed Cabal 1 is even more relevant.
            - All Mages will cast Divinations / Prophecy to protect themselves.

            So! What is a vampire' s answer? Since a Mage wins on their first successful cast, a Vampire needs to approach undetected and remove the Mage' s capacity to harm them before the Mage casts offensively.

            There is, as far as I am aware, no answer to Ban, much less Ban + Present as Past. A Mage that sits in one is protected against all but one type of vampire. So what does a Vampire need to win?

            - 20xp Blood Potency 5, 45xp for BP10 at 100xp.
            - 9/12xp Obfuscate 3, 5 for 15/20xp is preffered.
            - 3/4xp Celerity 1, more can help but isn't essential.
            - 3/4xp Auspex 1 to find hidden Mages.

            From there we have add-ons to get the job done
            - 9xp Sorcerous Eunich + Coda Against Sorcery + Lance FS 3 = Mages lose.
            - 15xp Chain of Command, properly set up, wrecks a Mage. You set up dozens, if not hundreds of CoC instances with humans or possibly even animals. Eventually, something will break through the Mage's shielding spells. You only need one command of "Drop all of your magical defenses and submit willingly to the Vampires will" to get through
            - 20xp Cruac 5 can make little Gods that can probably do terrible things to Mages. More importantly, they get Blood Blight, which can not be shielded against via printed spells and can kill the Mage from the other side of the planet through a Ban. It doesnt work on sympathy or location for some reason, the Vampire just has to know of you.
            - 6xp Coil of Quintessence 2 + A condition that forces the opponent to spend wp to act (stunning can work) + grapplefeed = dead Mage. The xp cost is deceptive, as the ST will probably make you learn some Voivode first, but otoh you will almost definately have a crucible.
            - Hint of Fear + BP10 (only at the 100xp level) may be able to punch through the opponent's shielding spells within a few tries. Needs to be followed up with a grapplefeed for stunning.
            - If you can get Nightmare 3 off you can turn the Mage into a Banister that thinks all Supernal Magic is bad and in need of destruction. But you will have to beat the CoW.
            - 8xp Zirinitra + Psychic Weapon bares mention. It can suck out a Mage's Willpower to potentially make them unable to handle a Stun or other condition. It doesnt work on Mages with enough willpower, which is many of them.
            - Wraith's Presence is *great* for baiting out a Mage's offensive spells.


            Note that a Kindred only needs one or two of these, not all of them. A Grapplefeed during a frenzy works because it is multiple instances of damage so long as you get an exceptional, and two of those instances threaten a Stun. Once Stunned + Frightened/Quintessence, the Mage is stun locked. Otherwise, because Charmed exists you need to use Dominate 1+ or Nightmare 3 through the Shielding spells... which, good luck.

            If the Mage spots the Vampire coming, identified it as a threat, and responds, then the Vampire loses.

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            • #96
              Ashenrogue That involves casting a spell that doesn't end the combat immediately. Also at lower BP vampires have more of a hot topic vulnerability to sunlight. It takes hours to kill them.

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              • #97
                O the other hand, battles between low level and young mages and vampires can be reduced down to two simple questions :
                -who wins the iniative
                -are the fighters aware of each other and do they have prep time

                Breaking down every possible scenario using success percentage...

                1) if the vampire can win the iniative, the fighters are not ready for the fight and the mage couldn't use any magic in prep time , the vampire will probably wins and slash the mage'throat easily. Since vampires will probably possess celerity, statistically they will win in this scenario.

                2)if by any means ( like bad luck and a shitty dice roll) , the vampire cannot* outright kill the mage in one shot, chances are the mage will be able to escape or killing him with spells like psychic possession or ban, or going back in time with shifting sands.
                Same thing apply for the vampire , who can run away with celerity or disappear with obfuscate

                3) if the fighters are aware of each other, have prep time or just a turn or two before the fight, the mage will probably win. There is no vampiric match for the mage ability to buff and control the battlefield with prep time, a mage won't even need to touch the vampire to damage him or kill him (forces, space time, ghosts, spirits etc...)

                4)if there is an ambush and the victim is helpless and can't act in the first turn (obfuscate and celerity, invisibility and subtle arcana) , the ambusher wins.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Lasombra View Post

                  Problem is, with that kind of power level white room are pointless. Vampires won't even be able to touch elder mages between their magic armor, clash of wills abilities, and ability to counter basically almost all of the disciplines.
                  ---snip---
                  I can already hear you typing on the keyboards lashing out... "yeah, BUT they can do that ONLY if they are prepared and know what's coming for them!!"

                  Well, short answer is.. No

                  Saying that elder mages will hypothetically walk into a white room unprepared or be ambushed in their sanctum by non awakened powers is like saying that an elder vampire will simply walk out the window of his haven in the middle of a* hot summer day because he like his skin dark.
                  Mages can cast almost semi permanent buff and enhanced spells. Even if they have to keep them casting, some extra reach will have them last for months or days.
                  There is absolutely no in game reason or mechanic that would reasonably force them to, unless they re in a very specific situation of "no fire zone" or they simply want to die.
                  So to paraphrase: You're saying Master Mages don't get to be Master Mages without being thoughtful and careful.

                  I completely agree and like what you said about how the Mage's shouldn't be reckless and in fact should for the most part represent stereotypes of wise and prudent planners.

                  I think this is also true of vampires of significant age and power. I must assert that white-room completely fails to capture a realistic interaction. An interaction between these two groups should really come down to either budding diplomatic relationships or defined by existing diplomatic relationships, depending if either one is freshly being introduced the local regional setting or if they've been co-existing for some time. It is important to remember if they do exist within the same economy/supernatural ecosystem there must be causes for that and those should be reasoned out to maintain a consistent internal logic to the story.

                  A personal favorite of mine is a faction of Mage's are Allied with Vampire, for example in Portland Oregon I have a very potent Seers of the Throne Pylon with ties to the ruling Triumvirate of Carthian Reeves, with the local Consilium brokering treaties with various lesser coteries to avoid being snitched out to those Seers, with the understanding on both sides of the Pentacle Mages and the Vampire Domain that unless takes actions that threaten the other the lesser coteries of vampires will not snitch, in exchange for freedom to simply exist while not causing a ruckus, even occasionally collaborating when mutually beneficial. The Consilium keeps an eye on Mages that would kick off a hostility between the factions just as much as the Vampires are incentivized to keep their mouth shut if the Mage's keep their end of the deal and snitch if not.

                  In my setting I do use Supports, so there is more tying character's to the setting and thus more that can be lost in a war than a standard murder-hobo PC, so this all makes sense.
                  Last edited by Pale_Crusader; 09-08-2017, 01:15 PM.


                  “Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.” ~ Aristophanes
                  "Virescit Vulnere Virtus" ~ Stewart Clan Motto

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                  • #99
                    If I remember right someone said that the spells don't affect being of size greater than 5 (or something like that). Why? How does the spellcasting work? How dos the damage work? Why high resilence shouldn't prevent the one cast death?

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                    • Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post

                      So to paraphrase: You're saying Master Mages don't get to be Master Mages without being thoughtful and careful.

                      I completely agree and like what you said about how the Mage's shouldn't be reckless and in fact should for the most part represent stereotypes of wise and prudent planners.

                      I think this is also true of vampires of significant age and power. I must assert that white-room completely fails to capture a realistic interaction. An interaction between these two groups should really come down to either budding diplomatic relationships or defined by existing diplomatic relationships, depending if either one is freshly being introduced the local regional setting or if they've been co-existing for some time. It is important to remember if they do exist within the same economy/supernatural ecosystem there must be causes for that and those should be reasoned out to maintain a consistent internal logic to the story.

                      A personal favorite of mine is a faction of Mage's are Allied with Vampire, for example in Portland Oregon I have a very potent Seers of the Throne Pylon with ties to the ruling Triumvirate of Carthian Reeves, with the local Consilium brokering treaties with various lesser coteries to avoid being snitched out to those Seers, with the understanding on both sides of the Pentacle Mages and the Vampire Domain that unless takes actions that threaten the other the lesser coteries of vampires will not snitch, in exchange for freedom to simply exist while not causing a ruckus, even occasionally collaborating when mutually beneficial. The Consilium keeps an eye on Mages that would kick off a hostility between the factions just as much as the Vampires are incentivized to keep their mouth shut if the Mage's keep their end of the deal and snitch if not.

                      In my setting I do use Supports, so there is more tying character's to the setting and thus more that can be lost in a war than a standard murder-hobo PC, so this all makes sense.
                      Totally agree on that with you.

                      Metuselah and elder vampires are... Well. Elder.
                      They didn't survive Horrifying challenges, enemies and powers through centuries without being smart. Even the most ill informed or ignorant gangrel war machine will probably have some kind of alien genius or sinister feral wit to be smart.
                      Chances are they probably had to face a cabal or two and know what to expect from awakened magic, and how to fear it. So they probably have some aces up their sleeves to counter magic and awakened elders themselves...
                      It shouldn't come up as a surprise for example if an elder vampires has both some seers cabal and diamond order as allies.. Just in case.. Somebody tries something funny...

                      But an elder vampire should know better than just go die challenging an elder mage on the street or in his sanctum..

                      If they had to set a plan in motion to kill an elder mage, it would probably be something really big full of allies, contacts, resources and other mages infighting and betrayal...

                      Honestly I would just straight up look for young mages on the street beat them half dead and then enslave them through blood bond and dominate or presence, then use them to learn everything about awakened magic and his limits, and using them to counter awakened magic.
                      Last edited by Lasombra; 09-08-2017, 01:38 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                        If I remember right someone said that the spells don't affect being of size greater than 5 (or something like that). Why? How does the spellcasting work? How dos the damage work? Why high resilence shouldn't prevent the one cast death?
                        U just need to spend 1 extra reach and u can target bigger size enemies, or 5 targets in one turn. With enough reach u can cast anything on anything, even a whale.


                        ~edit; I was wrong, Elfive rightfully corrected me u need to subtract two dices to affect bigger enemies extra reach only increase on subsequent dices subtract...
                        Last edited by Lasombra; 09-08-2017, 02:02 PM.

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                        • Actually reach doesn't help here. The advanced scale chart still starts at 5, but then goes up to 10 instead of 6 for the first step.

                          But yeah, Giant will mean the mage needs to take a 2 die penalty on any roll they want to affect you.

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                          • Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                            If I remember right someone said that the spells don't affect being of size greater than 5 (or something like that). Why? How does the spellcasting work?
                            Elfive's got this. Basically there's a chart, to target larger beings you have to go up the chart, each moving up requires -2 penalty to your spells. If you use Standard, it goes up slower than if you use Advanced, at the cost of a Reach.

                            How dos the damage work?
                            You have to set up the damage beforehand with Potence. Remember spells by 'default' do 1 damage, but for every one Potency you will generally get one extra damage.

                            Why high resilence shouldn't prevent the one cast death?
                            In general, it would. An Unmaking spell is always Withstood by the target's relevant Resistant Attribute, and in the case of most unmaking spells it would be Stamina, which Resilience adds to.

                            Theoretically you could do enough damage with a 'regular' damaging spell but that would involve enough Potency that it's not likely something you would be doing spur of the moment, any more than a vampire instantly draining someone dry with one strike. Sure it's a given for a high Power Trait supernatural, but most of the time it's not going to happen.

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                            • I see. So a protean 3 bear which ia size 7 should provide a -4 dice and to add potency other -2 each? So the pool will go low easily to deal significative damages. Am I right?

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                              • Originally posted by nofather View Post
                                In general, it would. An Unmaking spell is always Withstood by the target's relevant Resistant Attribute, and in the case of most unmaking spells it would be Stamina, which Resilience adds to.

                                Theoretically you could do enough damage with a 'regular' damaging spell but that would involve enough Potency that it's not likely something you would be doing spur of the moment, any more than a vampire instantly draining someone dry with one strike. Sure it's a given for a high Power Trait supernatural, but most of the time it's not going to happen.
                                Nit-Pick: Unmake Practice in Mind, such as 'No Exit' is Resolve which causes the subject to be physically catatonic.

                                But unmaking their undead body with Death would totally be Stamina.


                                “Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.” ~ Aristophanes
                                "Virescit Vulnere Virtus" ~ Stewart Clan Motto

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