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  • Originally posted by Marcus View Post
    I see. So a protean 3 bear which ia size 7 should provide a -4 dice and to add potency other -2 each? So the pool will go low easily to deal significative damages. Am I right?
    Yes. As pointed out, you could spend a Reach to go Advanced for Size, but even then you would need a -2 to upgrade it.

    Theoretically you could cast the spell on an area without taking such a big penalty, but that could end up affecting you.

    The general dicepool for spells is Gnosis + Arcana, and the big bonus you get as a third additive is yantras, but you can only use one yantra reflexively and most yantras don't go above a 2 die bonus. The alternative for that is using a Rote, which lets you use a Skill to add to a dicepool, which can act as a powerful yantra but usually limits the scope of the spell.
    Last edited by nofather; 09-08-2017, 04:47 PM.

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    • Originally posted by nofather View Post

      Yes. As pointed out, you could spend a Reach to go Advanced for Size, but even then you would need a -2 to upgrade it.

      Theoretically you could cast the spell on an area without taking such a big penalty, but that could end up affecting you.

      The general dicepool for spells is Gnosis + Arcana, and the big bonus you get as a third additive is yantras, but you can only use one yantra reflexively and most yantras don't go above a 2 die bonus. The alternative for that is using a Rote, which lets you use a Skill to add to a dicepool, which can act as a powerful yantra but usually limits the scope of the spell.
      Many thanks, so again I don't understand how the damaging spell could be so dangerous for EVERY vampire even if she has resilence.

      Ps: funny thing: I just noticed a devotion in 1000 years of night that give you up to resilence 10 as long as you spend 3 vitae and all the active effect free xD

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      • Originally posted by Lasombra View Post
        Chances are they probably had to face a cabal or two and know what to expect from awakened magic, and how to fear it. So they probably have some aces up their sleeves to counter magic and awakened elders themselves... It shouldn't come up as a surprise for example if an elder vampires has both some seers cabal and diamond order as allies.. Just in case.. Somebody tries something funny...
        I think that an elder kindred would know not to get involved. Vampire society is potentially highly polarised but not nearly to the extent that the Awakened are. The Pentacle and the Throne are in a divinely mandated war. A peaceful situation is one where they aren't actively murdering each other. However you arrange it, the Awakened are never far away from total war in which case any kindred allies are going to get hit.

        That's not to say that Kindred can't still come out on top, but the Awakened are quite unstable and risky people to try manipulating.

        Honestly I would just straight up look for young mages on the street beat them half dead and then enslave them through blood bond and dominate or presence, then use them to learn everything about awakened magic and his limits, and using them to counter awakened magic.
        To continue my point, that's super risky. The rewards are great but if you mess up, or simply allow your pet magi too much contact with other Awakened you're risking creating a group of magic users who now want to murder you personally.


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        • Originally posted by Marcus View Post
          Many thanks, so again I don't understand how the damaging spell could be so dangerous for EVERY vampire even if she has resilence.

          Ps: funny thing: I just noticed a devotion in 1000 years of night that give you up to resilence 10 as long as you spend 3 vitae and all the active effect free xD
          Oh, while Unmaking spell are usually Withstood by Stamina, keeping in mind Pale_Crusader's exception and others, a regular 'do Lethal damage' spell wouldn't be. But it would still require some penalties to do nice damage. Of course 'direct damage' isn't really the best way to go as a mage, instead you might set a vampire's clothes on fire or reset time a couple rounds ago to help deal with a surprise attack.

          In the end, though, mages and vampires aren't the Bloods and the Crips and aren't going to be fighting each other at first sight, or even when they know about each other. Obviously the thread is predicated on a 'they're fighting' motivation, but in the settings as given they aren't very antagonistic towards one another, and of course both have similar goals regarding the Masquerade, being 'fat and happy' and not having malign entities guided toward them.

          That said! While mages can use Space to target vampires from far away, vampires can use Blood Sorcery to reach the same effect, like through Stigmata or Blood Blight.
          Last edited by nofather; 09-08-2017, 06:16 PM.

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          • Originally posted by Michael View Post
            To continue my point, that's super risky. The rewards are great but if you mess up, or simply allow your pet magi too much contact with other Awakened you're risking creating a group of magic users who now want to murder you personally.
            Agreed. I think the senior members of their order would come down on you like a tonne of bricks if you tried that.

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            • an elder vampire wiht high resilience can try to survive an attack spell, and it might even shrug it off.
              However, just for the sake of it let's see a simple example of a damaging high level spell . Let's say a veteran mage with 4 in forces and 4 gnosis.

              thunderbolt- primary factor potence-
              dice pool (for the rote) is gnosis(4)+ forces (4) + relevant rote ability (let's assume its just 4 )+ 1 yantra dice (for a tool)= 13 dices for the spellcasting.
              Let's assume i dont have some dedicated permanent tool to dedicate ang gain additional advantage, or time to prepare (i could easily use prime to gain the reroll 8 to all of my spellcasting rolls )

              The spell in itself deals 4 levels of lethal damage, by spending 1 mana the damage is aggravated. it wont be that hard for a high resilience vampire to resist the attack, however never forget that a mage can accept a penality of -2 to his casting dicepool to inflict more damage. Each -2 dices, the damage grows by 1.

              so in this case, i can subtract 8 dices to my casting pool to inflict 8 levels of aggravated damage. I still have 5 dices to roll to cast my spell (and i will probably make it, unless bad luck happens) and i need only 1 success to cast my magic. Granted, a resilience 5 vampire can resist the assault, he will only get bruised (with 3 levels of aggravated damage anyway). However, vampires without resilience are pretty much fucked or in frenzy right now (thing that might happen even to a gangrel or ventrue since they suffer agg damage maybe from fire). if really pushed to, i can simply spend a willpower point and use those 3 extra dices to my casting pool, subtracting them, inflicting 9 levels of aggravated damage.

              I would like also to point out that mages from gnosis 3 upward can combine spells, effectively casting two spells in the same turn. While damaging spells can't be combined to inflict more health levels (since same effect spells don't stack), they can be used to pretty much annihilate or incapacitate any supernatural opponent. U use the lowest arcanum dice pool and subtract 2 dices from the casting pool. Some examples include:

              combining two simple forces spells- thunderbolt and kinetic strike- i only need 2 extra reaches to apply the knocked down and stunned tilt to my opponent, on top of inflicting aggravated damage.

              combining thunderbolt and gravity supremacy both . See how not only i inflict u aggravated damage, but u fly up into the air hopelessly, while i keep shooting lighting bolt and fire from below and u grasp the air not even realizing whats going on.

              combining two space spells, like collapse and alter direction, to trap my target in an endless loop where forward is backward, up is down and u cant escape from your own space, all while inflicting aggravated damage at the same time

              or just trap you in a ban from where u can’t escape AND inflict aggravated damage to u.


              combining grave misfortune (fate 3) with another damaging spell, to inflict even more damage. If a mage has fate 4 for example, and he choose to bolster the fate 4 spell chaos mastery, he only needs to spend 1 mana and one extra reach to inflict lots of levels of aggravated damage in one turn.
              Of course, grave misfortune is whitstood, but unless the vampire has a high composure he will probably suffer lots of aggravated health levels in one turn.


              However, the battle game where mages excel is not pure, raw damage (even though they are all quite capable to inflict aggravated damage and cause u any arm wreck blind poisoned, stunned knocked down tilt ecc..)

              The things they excel is field control and strategic control of the battle. Meaning they will first incapacitate u or manipulate reality to block u and counter your moves, AND then fry you up with lethal or aggravated damage.
              More on that later maybe but i think people in this forum know what i am referring to….
              Last edited by Lasombra; Today, 10:22 PM. Reason: I remembered that rotes cannot be combined in combined spellcasting, only praxes. so combined damaging spells wont be as damaging as pure rotes casting, but can damage the opponent and hinder him in other ways





              Last edited by Lasombra; 09-08-2017, 06:23 PM.

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              • Originally posted by nofather View Post

                Oh, while Unmaking spell are usually Withstood by Stamina, keeping in mind Pale_Crusader's exception and others, a regular 'do Lethal damage' spell wouldn't be. But it would still require some penalties to do nice damage. Of course 'direct damage' isn't really the best way to go as a mage, instead you might set a vampire's clothes on fire or reset time a couple rounds ago to help deal with a surprise attack.

                In the end, though, mages and vampires aren't the Bloods and the Crips and aren't going to be fighting each other at first sight, or even when they know about each other. Obviously the thread is predicated on a 'they're fighting' motivation, but in the settings as given they aren't very antagonistic towards one another, and of course both have similar goals regarding the Masquerade, being 'fat and happy' and not having malign entities guided toward them.

                That said! While mages can use Space to target vampires from far away, vampires can use Blood Sorcery to reach the same effect, like through Stigmata or Blood Blight.
                Except for reset time, resilence helps also against clothes on fire. I'm not saying its easy to deal with, but simply that it doesn't seems to be definitively in mage favor.

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                • Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                  Agreed. I think the senior members of their order would come down on you like a tonne of bricks if you tried that.
                  I'd say even non-members are a concern. A magically bound mage is a ready-made recruit.


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                  • Originally posted by Lasombra View Post
                    Let's say a veteran mage with 4 in forces and 4 gnosis.[/SIZE]

                    thunderbolt- primary factor potence-
                    dice pool (for the rote) is gnosis(4)+ forces (4) + relevant rote ability (let's assume its just 4 )+ 1 yantra dice (for a tool)= 13 dices for the spellcasting.
                    Let's assume i dont have some dedicated permanent tool to dedicate ang gain additional advantage, or time to prepare (i could easily use prime to gain the reroll 8 to all of my spellcasting rolls )

                    The spell in itself deals 4 levels of lethal damage, by spending 1 mana the damage is aggravated. it wont be that hard for a high resilience vampire to resist the attack, however never forget that a mage can accept a penality of -2 to his casting dicepool to inflict more damage. Each -2 dices, the damage grows by 1.
                    You would only have one yantra, the rote's Mudra counts as that. It also costs a Reach to turn that into Aggravated. Even with a rote you only have 2 Reach, so either you're having to touch them or throw the spell, take an extra turn or hour to cast the spell, or only do Lethal damage. If you want to do all three you have 2 Paradox dice to check..

                    Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                    Except for reset time, resilence helps also against clothes on fire. I'm not saying its easy to deal with, but simply that it doesn't seems to be definitively in mage favor.
                    Oh absolutely, providing the vampire isn't taken completely off-guard and has the right Disciplines they're pretty good.
                    Last edited by nofather; 09-08-2017, 06:53 PM.

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                    • Again I could be wrong but, doesn't vampire and undead in general, downgrade the damages? Lethal in bashing and aggravated in lethal?

                      If they are not specifically lethal/aggravated even to them at least. For example in werewolf is specified when a gift (or the bite) deal lethal even to vampires.

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                      • Originally posted by nofather View Post

                        You would only have one yantra, the rote's Mudra counts as that. It also costs a Reach to turn that into Aggravated. Even with a rote you only have 2 Reach, so either you're having to touch them, take an hour to cast the spell, or only do Lethal damage. If you want to do all three you have 2 Paradox dice to check..



                        Oh absolutely, providing the vampire isn't taken completely off-guard and has the right Disciplines they're pretty good.

                        At gnosis 4 u can combine 3 yantras in your spellcasting, and 2 paradox dices are really not that much a concern since at gnosis 4 i can spend 4 mana points to both inflict aggravated damage and remove 3 dices from my paradox pool...
                        Unless u are in a really bad luck or dense area, paradox is no concern to a mage that simply wants to kill u.

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                        • Originally posted by Michael View Post

                          I'd say even non-members are a concern. A magically bound mage is a ready-made recruit.

                          I agree i was pushing a little bit the limits there but still.. high level obfuscate vampire with powerful devotions to shield himself from space scrying and simpathy might just do that if he is really desperate...

                          but of course i agree elder vampires wont resort to similar tactics unless they are really in a bad situation.

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                          • Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                            Again I could be wrong but, doesn't vampire and undead in general, downgrade the damages? Lethal in bashing and aggravated in lethal?

                            If they are not specifically lethal/aggravated even to them at least. For example in werewolf is specified when a gift (or the bite) deal lethal even to vampires.
                            They downgrade all non-supernatural sources. Useful when getting shot, not so useful when a lightning bolt is about to smack you in the face.

                            Werewolves are capable of dealing lethal to anything if they bite it. Vampire, strix, mage, mage in shadow form, etc.

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                            • Originally posted by Lasombra View Post
                              At gnosis 4 u can combine 3 yantras in your spellcasting, and 2 paradox dices are really not that much a concern since at gnosis 4 i can spend 4 mana points to both inflict aggravated damage and remove 3 dices from my paradox pool...
                              Unless u are in a really bad luck or dense area, paradox is no concern to a mage that simply wants to kill u.
                              Paradox is pretty weak, but each paradox success penalizes your spellcasting dicepool.

                              Also, while you can use multiple yantras, you can only use one reflexively. Each additional one takes an instant action, meaning an extra turn.

                              Originally posted by Ever Professional View Post
                              They downgrade all non-supernatural sources. Useful when getting shot, not so useful when a lightning bolt is about to smack you in the face.
                              It doesn't say they downgrade non-supernatural sources. It says they 'take only bashing damage from many sources that would normally cause lethal damage to humans. This includes most non-supernatural weapons.'

                              Going by raw it would seem that they'd downgrade Lethal to Bashing from a Lethal-causing spell. I'm guessing vampire and mage fans will disagree on this.

                              Werewolves are capable of dealing lethal to anything if they bite it. Vampire, strix, mage, mage in shadow form, etc.
                              That's an a special aspect of their fangs. I think you could probably do something similar with a Prime spell.
                              Last edited by nofather; 09-08-2017, 06:58 PM.

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                              • So if I'm reading this thread right Mekhet are the best clan to fight a Mage (I already know they're the best in general) with Gangral second and Ventrue a close third, Daeva forth and Nosferatu last? Does this seem right to everyone? What Bloodline discipline would make each clan more effective?
                                What do we think the best Mage paths for fighting vampires are?

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