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  • Originally posted by Ever Professional View Post

    They downgrade all non-supernatural sources. Useful when getting shot, not so useful when a lightning bolt is about to smack you in the face.

    Werewolves are capable of dealing lethal to anything if they bite it. Vampire, strix, mage, mage in shadow form, etc.
    There are werewolf gifts that specifically cause claws to deal lethal EVEN to vampires while normally no.

    Lighiting is lighting even if summoned by a spell, and by raw lighting deal bashing to vampires.

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    • Originally posted by Lasombra View Post

      Problem is, with that kind of power level white room are pointless. Vampires won't even be able to touch elder mages between their magic armor, clash of wills abilities, and ability to counter basically almost all of the disciplines.

      To break it down to u:

      Elder acanthus are chess masters, and their chess table is time and fate around them. They won't ever, ever be ambushed or surprised and will almost always act first in a fight. Fate allows them also to clash of wills automatically against any mind power trying to control them. The only way an elder vampire would ever be able to ambush or attack an elder acanthus is by extremely powerful devotions that can mess with space and time, and counter the mage ability to foresee the future and simply control fate and reality around himself.

      Mastigos_ vampires won't even ever find or touch an elder mastigos. Elder mastigos will probably act with puppets, minions and messengers. High space mean he can cast from distance from the safety of his sanctum, and mind means he can simply travel in Astral form or read the mind of his enemies and mess with them like a puppeteer. Not to mention high space allows you to remove yourself entirely from reality or banish enemies beyond salvation. Yeah. Good luck finding him. He is an untouchable professor Xavier.

      Obrimos_ forces means fire and destruction and aggravated damage that can instantly kill an entire coterie of elder vampires. He can also simply become immune to physical damage with spells like turn momentum or creating an invisible force field around him. Not to mention, high prime? Have fun creating all the artifacts magical armor, imbued item or magical weapons you want, and also infinite mana or mana springs.

      Moros: vampire won't find him or hurt him unless he can travel in the realm of the dead or touch ghost since he can simply go around invisible and untouchable. Even if he finds him, good luck defeating his army of the dead and ghosts that will haunt u from twilight. Oh, he can also banish u in the twilight and never let u come back or make a ghost possess u so...also, good luck piercing his 5/5 bulletproof permanent armor on top of his magical enhanced weaponry and defense system...

      Thyrsus_ physically will probably be as strong as an elder vampire fighter, and can clash of wills against all body tilts or harm. He will probably have permanent buff that give him high defense a high health and regeneration. Also spirit so... Unless vampire can umbra travel and fight against rank 4 spirits that surround the wizard as bodyguard, he is no match. Also, spirit means he will probably wear a shittons of amulets and fetishes that make him a formidable opponent.

      I can already hear you typing on the keyboards lashing out... "yeah, BUT they can do that ONLY if they are prepared and know what's coming for them!!"

      Well, short answer is.. No

      Saying that elder mages will hypothetically walk into a white room unprepared or be ambushed in their sanctum by non awakened powers is like saying that an elder vampire will simply walk out the window of his haven in the middle of a* hot summer day because he like his skin dark.
      Mages can cast almost semi permanent buff and enhanced spells. Even if they have to keep them casting, some extra reach will have them last for months or days.
      There is absolutely no in game reason or mechanic that would reasonably force them to, unless they re in a very specific situation of "no fire zone" or they simply want to die.

      A whole lot of what you're saying mages do here would result in low-to-no Wisdom scores. Talk about white room. Mages don't have Banes like vampires do. They can Inure, but that just makes Paradox worse.

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      • Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
        So if I'm reading this thread right Mekhet are the best clan to fight a Mage (I already know they're the best in general) with Gangral second and Ventrue a close third, Daeva forth and Nosferatu last? Does this seem right to everyone? What Bloodline discipline would make each clan more effective?
        What do we think the best Mage paths for fighting vampires are?

        I wouldn't put Nosferatu so far down the list.

        Obfuscate, Vigor, Nightmare are an effective 'surprise and kill you in one shot' combination. To the point that there were complaints when the game came out that out of character creation a Nosferatu could beat another vampire to death fairly easily.
        Last edited by nofather; 09-08-2017, 07:27 PM.

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        • Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
          So if I'm reading this thread right Mekhet are the best clan to fight a Mage (I already know they're the best in general) with Gangral second and Ventrue a close third, Daeva forth and Nosferatu last? Does this seem right to everyone? What Bloodline discipline would make each clan more effective?
          What do we think the best Mage paths for fighting vampires are?
          As suggested many times in this thread, there is no one-size-fits-all answer for these sorts of questions.

          It matters heavily which Path the vampire is fighting as to which Clan has the best tools readily available to answer them. A Nosferatu that has mastered Nightmare could kill a mage in a single turn, provided that mage has no Mind shielding. I'm not sure why you think Mekhet is best (though they're certainly my favorite), given they don't really have any special boons when it comes to offense. Auspex gathers intel, which is important, but it doesn't give you mind lasers or anything. If it's Celerity, Daeva have it in-clan, too, but even then Celerity isn't a special Clan discipline. Anyone can manifest it naturally, without finding a blood donor. Obfuscate is also held by Nosferatu, which you claimed are the worst.

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          • I think whether a lethal damage spell downgrades or not probably depends on the arcarnum that did it. Matter? Yeah. Death? Maybe not.

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            • Originally posted by Elfive View Post
              I think whether a lethal damage spell downgrades or not probably depends on the arcarnum that did it. Matter? Yeah. Death? Maybe not.
              In the case of Death, I would argue it depends on the exact spell. In the case of Rotting Flesh (p.132) and Withering (p. 133) you can make a case for them being downgraded or even dealing no damage at all. That being said, a Death mage should definitely be able to cause serious harm to a vampire, they would just need to build a different Imago. A subtle distinction that might matter in regards to the Praxes and Rote repertoire the Death mage in question has access to.


              Politeness is the lubricant of social intercourse.

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              • Of course, since we're white-rooming we can go ahead a pre-load our mage with the 4 dot "Fuk U Vamps" rote.

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                • Originally posted by Maina View Post


                  A whole lot of what you're saying mages do here would result in low-to-no Wisdom scores. Talk about white room. Mages don't have Banes like vampires do. They can Inure, but that just makes Paradox worse.
                  Actually, after looking over what was said, I'm not really seeing much that will impact Wisdom in any significant capacity. The only things that might be a problem is controlling people/spirits/ghosts with magic, and even that is only an issue if you use magic to force them directly. Magically assisted bargaining, bribing, and diplomacy seem like they get around that easily enough.

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                  • Originally posted by nofather View Post


                    I wouldn't put Nosferatu so far down the list.

                    Obfuscate, Vigor, Nightmare are an effective 'surprise and kill you in one shot' combination. To the point that there were complaints when the game came out that out of character creation a Nosferatu could beat another vampire to death fairly easily.
                    Originally posted by Maina View Post

                    As suggested many times in this thread, there is no one-size-fits-all answer for these sorts of questions.

                    It matters heavily which Path the vampire is fighting as to which Clan has the best tools readily available to answer them. A Nosferatu that has mastered Nightmare could kill a mage in a single turn, provided that mage has no Mind shielding. I'm not sure why you think Mekhet is best (though they're certainly my favorite), given they don't really have any special boons when it comes to offense. Auspex gathers intel, which is important, but it doesn't give you mind lasers or anything. If it's Celerity, Daeva have it in-clan, too, but even then Celerity isn't a special Clan discipline. Anyone can manifest it naturally, without finding a blood donor. Obfuscate is also held by Nosferatu, which you claimed are the worst.
                    The disciplines that have come up the most have been Celerity as the I win in round one power, Resilience, Obfuscate to get the drop on the Mage and Auspex to find them and Dominate to get them to assist you instead of fighting you. I based my ranking on access to these as I'm unfamiliar with the Mage rules. I also assumed the Grangal would turn into something with size 7 to make casting spells on them hard.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Maina View Post


                      A whole lot of what you're saying mages do here would result in low-to-no Wisdom scores. Talk about white room. Mages don't have Banes like vampires do. They can Inure, but that just makes Paradox worse.
                      Well... Yeah probably. But I don't see why this would be relevant. I mean, same can be said about elder vampires.
                      Elder mages will probably suffer from permanent flaw or low wisdom , and high wisdom mages are probably rarer than saints.

                      I give you two examples of elder mages, but there are more around through mage books...

                      The Nemean and Grey Pope.

                      One has probably lots of spirits willingly to serve him or enslaved, and won't almost never go around without them (there is no reason for that)
                      Through the books, he is showed quite capable of using them and go around with them, like the time he massacred the entire conspiracy of mages who wanted to dethrone him, by unleashing a group of spirits capable of mutilating and inflict aggravated damage to an entire cabal.

                      The other is exactly like the mastigos I described, even fellow seers of the throne doubt about his existence, he only acts through scrying and servants and lives separated from reality.


                      Thing is, all the strategies i listed are probably just common sense around elder mages. It's not even that hard to dodge the wisdom loss if u approach ghosts and spirits with role play and help them in exchange for essence or favors.
                      In my cabal the young freshly awakened moros already got a ghost ally in two sessions, and my girlfriend was able to make contacts and allies with two city spirits pretty easily.

                      Creating magical items and armors provoke no wisdom loss unless it involves stealing and binding souls or spirits unwillingly, usually.

                      Buffing yourself or scry into the future, create a safe space haven beyond reality to meditate and rest, usually won't trigger wisdom loss..

                      Realistically speaking, elder mages will probably have an average of 5 wisdom or even lower. If they had to fight and betray for their position, or if they felt to hubris (exactly like elder vampires that suffered humanity loss during the centuries) they won't exactly be those illuminated masters awakened propaganda wants u to believe.


                      Also, I totally agree with o when u say that a fight really depends on order, path, clan and covenant and its really subjective... I can picture scenarios where a seductive daeva can kill a mage and a ninja like mekhet won't event be able to touch them, or viceversa. It's all really subjective honestly...
                      Last edited by Lasombra; 09-09-2017, 01:21 AM.

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                      • Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
                        So if I'm reading this thread right Mekhet are the best clan to fight a Mage (I already know they're the best in general) with Gangral second and Ventrue a close third, Daeva forth and Nosferatu last? Does this seem right to everyone? What Bloodline discipline would make each clan more effective?
                        What do we think the best Mage paths for fighting vampires are?
                        To sum it up...

                        Best disciplines to win in a fight against a mage :

                        -celerity. Mages must NEVER act first in a fight, otherwise its bad news for the vampire.

                        -obfuscate. Can even deceive magic sight and can either help the vampire ambush the mage or run away if thing get messy.

                        -nightmare. Unless the mage has a mind shield, this will send him into panic attacks and will stop him from casting or concentrate

                        -vigor. Extra automatic damage allows to vampire to kill the mage in one hit.

                        -resilience if u plan on resisting magic attacks and keep on fighting, but (and this is my personal opinion) prolonging a fight with an awakened character is a really bad idea, since each extra turn he can simply turn the tables on u or ran away.

                        A mage worth his name won't probably attack u with gross vulgar damaging spells.


                        These are my personal pick for best mage killer disciplines.


                        If we take a look at the arcanas, there are a lot of ways to mess up with vampires and control the fight.


                        -mind. Psychic domination allows u to instantly kill or incapacitate an opponent. Dominate looks weak in comparison. Mind doesn't need conditions like charmed, with some extra reach the mage can just rewrite your will and force u to kill yourself or become his servant in one turn.

                        Not to mention he can change your memory and transform you into his loyal lover or worse.

                        -space. As acknowledged before, there is no vampire response to spells like ban or teleportation. The mage can trap the vampire for as long as he wants or he can escape and build himself an indestructible and anti disciplines shield. Distorting the sense of direction, he can control the course of the battle on the field.
                        Spells like co location are so overpowered... A mage can simply teleport himself as a reflexive action each turn. Or he can try to touch u and teleport u away in a Co located place. That's scary. Just need some reach and risk some paradox, but it's worth it.

                        Forces-apart from fire and aggravated damage, forces is a really powerful and under appreciated arcana.
                        Gravity supremacy will send u flying in the air falling from the ground, so vigor celerity or resilience won't help u there.
                        Vampires will need powers working from distance or firearms. Even then, I would argue that it's not exactly that easy to dominate or shoot someone when u are free falling without control.
                        Turn momentum allows the mage to automatically dodge every physical attack he receive.
                        He can also turn himself invisibile and impossible to hear.

                        Time- shifting sands. A mage who gets ambushed or find himself in a fight for which is not ready for... Can simply go back in time 3 or 4 turns and buff himself or walk away from the attack . 1 extra reach and they can travel an entire scene back.
                        Spells like acceleration allow* them to start first in a* fight like celerity or allows them to clash of wills against other supernaturals power to act first.
                        Combined with the ability to have prophecies , see the future everyday when u wake up by simply casting a low level spell, and the ability to hung spells so that they automatically activate when a fight occurs... Will allow the mage to be ready for a fight in almost any circumstance.
                        Also remember, that if we are talking about* Elder acanthus mages, time 4 allows them to act first in a fight and trump against every other supernaturals effect that boost initiative in a* fight (present as past)*

                        -Death and spirit. Ghosts and spirits as bodyguards? Yes. Please. A vampire might attack the mage, but unless he has auspex he will be surprised when "things" start messing with him from twilight or the umbra.
                        Thyrsus and moros mages will probably never be alone, even in a white room. They are specifically built to have spirit and ghosts servants.

                        These spiritual and ghastly arcanas allow the mage to escape through portals to the twilight or umbra, or they can even trap in one turn a vampire on the other side of the gauntlet.
                        Have fun in the alien and hostile world of ephemeral beings and weird creatures..

                        Matter - can Imprison a vampire in the ground or build incredible armors or even (at matter 4) build invisible barriers or walls to protect the mage. Unless vampire has access to protean and means of escape, he will be trapped.



                        In my personal opinion,* prime and life are the weakest arcana to use in a battle against a vampires.

                        Life won't affect the vampire at all, and will be useful only for defense purpose (by imitate resilience effects and heal). With the right prep time a life mage can display a nice set of armor and defense and buff to stamina and attributes.

                        Prime apart from celestial fire and aggravated damage is more like an utility arcana, u can use it to never run out of mana or build effects that help you cast more powerful spells. But it won't affect vampire powers or hinder them in particular ways...
                        Same can be said for fate, at low levels is formidable to get extremely useful buffs and amounts of dices, but in a straight up fight become useful only with spells like shared destiny (the damage u inflicts me will be inflicted also upon u) and chaos mastery (fate 4) where I can simply reduce any action my target will decide to di to a chance die.
                        There's the infamous exceptional luck infinite combo to become a monster and gain all kinds of conditions and bonus dices, but it's irrelevant to the white room scenario if there is no prep time. Scary.

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                        • So a Nos bloodline with Celerity and a high enough Blood Potency to use Celerity and Vigour in the same turn comes top of the list and a Daeva second?
                          Does anyone have any thoughts about the numbers and power level spread of will workers compared to kindred? Unless I'm very wrong Mages will get their power stat raised faster than a Vampire would but a powerful Vampire will keep gaining power forever and not all Mages can become immortal (and as I understand it Arch-Mages are unlikely to involve themselves in this level of combat where as an Elder would act if threatened) so Vampires would rack up more elite but irreplaceable uber units and Mages would have more resistance to supernatural attacks along with information supremacy. I think we can be certain Vampires including Ghouls would have the numbers but unless the Mages are sloppy that won't be a factor. Vampires also have relatively free access to fuel, how hard is it for Mages to get Mana and how fast will they be spending it?
                          Last edited by Live Bait; 09-09-2017, 07:11 AM.

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                          • Originally posted by Lasombra View Post
                            Gravity supremacy will send u flying in the air falling from the ground, so vigor celerity or resilience won't help u there.
                            Vampires will need powers working from distance or firearms.
                            Just to point out that the falling im every direction part is just applicable to objects not subjects. It's stated that nullify gravity for object increase their speed and jump distance of a potency factor that is definetely a bonus not a malus.

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                            • Life might be able to stake a vampire by controlling a nearby tree or something.

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                              • Originally posted by Marcus View Post

                                Just to point out that the falling im every direction part is just applicable to objects not subjects. It's stated that nullify gravity for object increase their speed and jump distance of a potency factor that is definetely a bonus not a malus.
                                My bad, I got the wrong spell. It's the lower level version just 2 dots in forces :

                                Control Gravity (Forces ••)
                                Practice: Ruling
                                Primary Factor: Potency
                                Suggested Rote Skills: Athletics, Occult, Science
                                The mage can redirect the force of gravity in an area. She can alter the direction of its pull, causing affected objects to“fall” upwards or horizontally. She can’t do more than change its direction at this level, but she can make it nearly impossible
                                to approach a specific object or area without some means of overcoming gravity, like flight or climbing gear.
                                Anyone and anything affected by the spell that is not secured “falls” in the direction chosen by the caster. Victims may suffer damage if they collide with objects. Someone trapped in an area
                                where gravity propels him upward might be stuck falling to the edge of the spell’s radius, then back down again as normal gravity takes over, only to fall upward again as he enters the spell’s
                                area. A person or creature capable of action can make a roll to
                                escape, at the Storyteller’s discretion, by grabbing onto a nearby
                                object or otherwise finding the means to control her position.


                                Basically, imagine a gangrel or Daeva spinning around in the air and keep falling up and down for 20 meters or more... All while the mage can cast fireballs at you.

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