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  • #16
    Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post

    I didn't see it that way but it seemed like it was stirring in that direction, though Covenants being an international phenomena doesn't help the whole "everywhere is not the same" thing don't you think?


    You might consider reading the sample cities in the core book. They give examples on how different cities might be run. They also give examples on how the Covenants can differ in different places. Even though two cities might have the Carthian Movement, the details of the Movement might be completely different between them.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post
      I didn't see it that way but it seemed like it was stirring in that direction, though Covenants being an international phenomena doesn't help the whole "everywhere is not the same" thing don't you think?
      They're more of an international phenomenon in concept, with different areas doing things differently, New York's Invictus being run like a business compared to Atlanta's being an old fashioned estate, and it's more like 'these covenants exist all over the world' rather than 'every place has these covenants.'

      If you look at the example domains, some of the ideas are similar but the setup is entirely different. Greece's only real recognizable covenant is the Circle of the Crone. Beijing has a Lancea et Sanctum but nothing else. The farther you get away from North America the more variation you find.

      Just like with domain politics. Not every place has a Prince, even less will have sheriffs, hounds, primogen, and so forth.
      Last edited by nofather; 09-30-2017, 10:37 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
        One thing on unaligned, I get a disproportianal number of Unaligned char concepts in my game and it makes me wonder what the apeal is.

        To me it seems crass and pointless...
        In my experience is more a matter of practicality than predilection. Chrod/NWoD with its "selling point" of "every city can be whatever you like and you dont have to conform to the norm" (which i still dont get, because i could do that before) lacks a baseline for players to latch on to when going into a game.

        When i go into a Masquerade game i know what to expect. Ventrue are gonna be like this, Ravnos like that etc etc. I can make a character with fresh from chargen belonging to a clan and be right at home in knowing how my organization (clan, in the case of masquerade) is gonna function. When the DMs decides to spice things up, for example "in my city, Caitiff are almost a clan on their own" then is the first thing he/she gonna tell me before the game starts because when there is lots of preconceptions then listing the things that defy that are easier.

        "I am running a Masquerade game but Followers of set and Baali are the same organization and Tremere arent part of the camarilla."

        Requiem on the other hand has the issue that i dont really have a baseline on how the covenants are gonna be because the game constantly tells me that the DM can and will do whatever they want with them (and some like the carthians and Circle are designed to be a different as possible) but at the same time the illfitted chargen ask me to make a character belonging to a covenant.

        So i have run into situations were i wanted to make a scientist-like Ordo dracul member and found out that the local Ordo Dracul members in the Dms game are all mystically based and my character felt ill-fitted. Or that i wanted to play a regular Ordo Dracul but the Dm latch on the idea that they are a hidden society inside the covenants. Or a just-like-Anarchs Carthian but the Carthians in the city were a fascist rule. And all of this are valid setting-as-written versions of the covenant.

        Then i am stuck with a character that belong to an organization i dont like (because my idea of the organization and the DMs are in conflict, and both are valid in "canon") with little hope beyond either suck it up or retire the PC and make another one. And fresh from chargen this carries problems, if i make the Ordo Dracul scientist why would he have joined the occultist Dragons in the city?

        By making an unaligned i can explore all the DM-versions of the covenant and judge them on their own and then decide which i like more without being tie to one from the get go. Same reason that i, as DM, force players to become tribe-less, Unaligned, order-less PCs. So they can explore my take on the factions and choose on their own. And also because players never read the books, so asking them to choose a political organization via elevator pitch is pointless to the game for me.

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        • #19
          I get your problem, but it seems to me that has an easy fix. Simply discuss with your GM your character idea and they can either warn you it won't fit or change the setting so that it does fit.
          In fact, that should be standard when starting campaigns regardless of system used. Neglecting to do that is bad planning rather than bad game design.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Tessie View Post
            I get your problem, but it seems to me that has an easy fix. Simply discuss with your GM your character idea and they can either warn you it won't fit or change the setting so that it does fit.
            In fact, that should be standard when starting campaigns regardless of system used. Neglecting to do that is bad planning rather than bad game design.
            Thing is, extreme examples aside (the carthian example) that line is not so obvious. Aesthetics is something rarely discussed until it clashes.

            On the ordo example: i came to the dm and said "i am gonna play a typical ordo dracul with x, y and z background" and the dm interpreted "typical ordo dracul member" as either occultist or just grabbed the core tennet and though that as long as that was part of the order, the flavor was unimportant.

            Is not even about fitting socially, the dm (i have done this in the past too) could think that as long as the character wont be ostracized and leave to his own devices then he wont be an ill fit. After all he got to play his selection of covenant and flavor regardless of his surroundings. And sometimes thats enough but other times it isnt. Even the definition of fitting is subjective.

            Personally i never seen a gain with the whole "players start with tribe/covenant/order" beyond "the player is really experienced with the game and this is his 2nd character in the campaign."

            Maybe in one of those in-media-res game in which the whole table is very experienced and are playing big shots from the get go.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
              On the ordo example: i came to the dm and said "i am gonna play a typical ordo dracul with x, y and z background" and the dm interpreted "typical ordo dracul member" as either occultist or just grabbed the core tennet and though that as long as that was part of the order, the flavor was unimportant.
              Discussion is about talking over something with someone else. Telling someone what you're going to do, then hoping they get what you really meant is avoiding discussion.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by nofather View Post

                Discussion is about talking over something with someone else. Telling someone what you're going to do, then hoping they get what you really meant is avoiding discussion.
                Read again what i wrote. The part about how "fitting" can mean different things to 2 people. At the time the dm said "sure, he will fit the game." because he tough that that the mere fact that my character was accepted socially in the covenant (meaning he was just regarded as a dragon regardless of flavor clash) was enough to fit in.

                While to me it applies to flavor too.

                I still havent seen a good argument in favor of the ill fitter chargen level beyond "hold over from masquerade dragged through all lines regardless of whether it fit or not". Specially for new comers, the chargen should start with tribeless, orderless and unaligned with the current chargen as optional rule.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                  Read again what i wrote. The part about how "fitting" can mean different things to 2 people. At the time the dm said "sure, he will fit the game." because he tough that that the mere fact that my character was accepted socially in the covenant (meaning he was just regarded as a dragon regardless of flavor clash) was enough to fit in.
                  I read what you said. As Tessie pointed out, this is resolved by discussing things, which you didn't do. If you did, you would both discover what you meant by fitting, as you would understand what the Ordo Dracul appeared as in the domain the ST made.

                  That said, since the Ordo Dracul are a mesh of mysticism and science and you can't really have one without the other, it sounds like both sides made odd choices.

                  I still havent seen a good argument in favor of the ill fitter chargen level beyond "hold over from masquerade dragged through all lines regardless of whether it fit or not". Specially for new comers, the chargen should start with tribeless, orderless and unaligned with the current chargen as optional rule.
                  Well, it keeps every story from being turned into a bunch of initiations, for one. It also allows for your vampire to have an established connection to the domain, rather than being a completely unassociated character whose every aspect has to be determined by the influence of in-play interactions. Similar to how in Dungeons and Dragons everyone doesn't start as a peasant, then decide what class you want to be at level 5. There's an entire method of character creation in the form of the Ladder that's there to help the Storyteller and their players be on the right page with this, as well as help rounding out your character's background.

                  Simply put, as has been noted repeatedly in the thread, if you wanted to be unaligned and join a covenant later or not, it is an option.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by nofather View Post
                    Well, it keeps every story from being turned into a bunch of initiations, for one. It also allows for your vampire to have an established connection to the domain, rather than being a completely unassociated character whose every aspect has to be determined by the influence of in-play interactions.
                    Except that the chrod focus is on the micro instead of the macro. On the personal level. The initiations are massively important. Joining the faction in-game will have 10 times more weight than done so in background.

                    As for connections. I am not saying everyone everywhere should start fresh (say 1 month or 2 in) factionless but that it should be the default when new reader get the book. When i teach this games to new people, they lack the sufficient understanding of the setting to make established characters and face election paralysis. Even those unicorn players that read the book.

                    Also your comparison with d&d falls apart on the fact that players start the game at level one. While the wod equivalent would be starting at level 5.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post

                      So i have run into situations were i wanted to make a scientist-like Ordo dracul member and found out that the local Ordo Dracul members in the Dms game are all mystically based and my character felt ill-fitted. Or that i wanted to play a regular Ordo Dracul but the Dm latch on the idea that they are a hidden society inside the covenants. Or a just-like-Anarchs Carthian but the Carthians in the city were a fascist rule. And all of this are valid setting-as-written versions of the covenant.

                      Then i am stuck with a character that belong to an organization i dont like (because my idea of the organization and the DMs are in conflict, and both are valid in "canon") with little hope beyond either suck it up or retire the PC and make another one. And fresh from chargen this carries problems, if i make the Ordo Dracul scientist why would he have joined the occultist Dragons in the city?
                      No game text can account for your miscommunication with you and your ST.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
                        I think that's because there would be a tonne of cities and regions where there would be no Prince/Harpy/Sheriff/Hound/Primogen/etc., since 2e has moved away from "Everywhere in the world is the same".
                        That's right. Vampire societies in different cities have different structures. We don't say "here's 500 words on what primogen are" because there aren't always primogen. There probably aren't even usually primogen. In early 1e, there was a paint-by-numbers structure for all cities. 1e moved away from this, and by the time we were doing 2e, we no longer felt beholden to the Masquerade-inherited vampire civics structure.


                        Rose Bailey
                        Onyx Path Development Producer
                        Cavaliers of Mars Creator | Chronicles of Darkness Lead Developer

                        Retired as forum administrator. Please direct inquiries to the Contact Us link.

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                        • #27
                          Not every coventant is in every city... and some citys have unique covenants.


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                            Except that the chrod focus is on the micro instead of the macro. On the personal level. The initiations are massively important. Joining the faction in-game will have 10 times more weight than done so in background.
                            They're as important as you want them to be. They're not always important, let alone massively important, and however much impact it has on them can be the same in-game or in background, I'm not sure why you would believe otherwise.

                            Even the focus is where you want it to be. Having a character who eshews their personal life to operate at a domain level is just as supported as a vampire who never thinks beyond themselves.

                            As for connections. I am not saying everyone everywhere should start fresh (say 1 month or 2 in) factionless but that it should be the default when new reader get the book. When i teach this games to new people, they lack the sufficient understanding of the setting to make established characters and face election paralysis. Even those unicorn players that read the book.
                            As has been mentioned repeatedly, this is why the players should be discussing things with their storyteller. It is not an arcade game where you just walk up having no idea what you're getting into. It's a cooperative storytelling game. You're supposed to be working on this together, being on the same page. If you insist on 'teaching' the game to people, that would be a fine place to set your views down.

                            Also your comparison with d&d falls apart on the fact that players start the game at level one. While the wod equivalent would be starting at level 5.
                            Sure.

                            It's why you don't start every character as a baby, then run the story through elementary school and adolescence and high school and then get embraced at some point between high school and retirement. These things can have more or less impact than joining a covenant, but it's fine to write it into your background rather than play it.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by nofather View Post
                              These things can have more or less impact than joining a covenant, but it's fine to write it into your background rather than play it.
                              Also, there's a reason preludes are included in the character creation process of every major gameline bar Mummy.


                              Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by nofather View Post
                                As has been mentioned repeatedly, this is why the players should be discussing things with their storyteller.
                                And as i said before, no amount of talking beyond a 2 hour chat on the nuanced of the covenants/tribes/cabals is gonna get it done.

                                Originally posted by nofather View Post
                                It is not an arcade game where you just walk up having no idea what you're getting into. It's a cooperative storytelling game. You're supposed to be working on this together, being on the same page. If you insist on 'teaching' the game to people, that would be a fine place to set your views down.
                                It kinda is. New player come with a barebones concept. "I wanna play a vampire like in X media" I have teached this game to new players since 1st edition and i would never let them decide on anything beyond their PCs and surrounding background NPcs (friends, family, etc). They havent read all the books or even the core itself so their concept of what each covenant/Tribe/Order is, at best what i tell them, as a short blurb.

                                At this point is a we are discussing something that is not gonna get anywhere. You think WoD chargen is fine. I think its awful and it only made sense in Masquerade up to apocalypse and since then it has been an drag on the whole game ever since. So agree to disagree etc etc.
                                Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 10-02-2017, 09:38 PM.

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