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  • #31
    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
    At this point is a we are discussing something that is not gonna get anywhere. You think WoD chargen is fine. I think its awful and it only made sense in Masquerade up to apocalypse and since then it has been an drag on the whole game ever since. So agree to disagree etc etc.
    Then please stop bringing your conceited notions into the discussion. Your additions to the subject matter have been all borderline completely off-topic. Individual deficiency in handling the text as written is beyond the scope of any written medium to address on it's own.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
      It kinda is. New player come with a barebones concept. "I wanna play a vampire like in X media" I have teached this game to new players since 1st edition and i would never let them decide on anything beyond their PCs and surrounding background NPcs (friends, family, etc). They havent read all the books or even the core itself so their concept of what each covenant/Tribe/Order is, at best what i tell them, as a short blurb.

      At this point is a we are discussing something that is not gonna get anywhere. You think WoD chargen is fine. I think its awful and it only made sense in Masquerade up to apocalypse and since then it has been an drag on the whole game ever since. So agree to disagree etc etc.
      Which is how you always dismiss these issues. I'm pretty sure everyone here has voiced at least some problems with these games, maybe even Rose, and I've acknowledged and pointed out problems in them, even my favorite.

      My statement here, and in other threads you've popped up, is more that the problems you complain of are more the result of you not taking any time to discuss things with players or storytellers. I find it ironic, because you're more than willing to spend time talking here. I don't know you beyond your posts, but based on those, the problems you have with them seem more based on your end then the those of the books.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Rose Bailey View Post

        That's right. Vampire societies in different cities have different structures. We don't say "here's 500 words on what primogen are" because there aren't always primogen. There probably aren't even usually primogen. In early 1e, there was a paint-by-numbers structure for all cities. 1e moved away from this, and by the time we were doing 2e, we no longer felt beholden to the Masquerade-inherited vampire civics structure.
        But how do you know if these positions exist in a city, is it possible for a city to have a Prince, a Primogen council, a Sheriff, a hound and three Harpies like back then?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post
          But how do you know if these positions exist in a city, is it possible for a city to have a Prince, a Primogen council, a Sheriff, a hound and three Harpies like back then?
          It is, if you want. They and other titles have been described repeatedly across many vampire supplements.

          First chapter, introduction, 'You have everything you need to play in this book, but we’ve published many other Vampire books over the years that can enhance your game.' Along with a list of some very useful ones. Damnation City, for instance, is listed and described as being, 'the definitive handbook to building your
          own city for the World of Darkness. It’s packed full of sample districts, locations, and mortals, as well as example rulers and systems for playing politics.' And sure enough it goes into great detail of the jobs of various titles domains might throw at their vampires.
          Last edited by nofather; 10-03-2017, 08:22 AM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post

            But how do you know if these positions exist in a city, is it possible for a city to have a Prince, a Primogen council, a Sheriff, a hound and three Harpies like back then?
            I'd like to clarify the question, as it seems related to how old within the setting that particular vampire civic structure is. Is that correct?

            Rephrased: What is the reasonable Dark Era for the Prince/Primogen/Harpy/Sheriff/Scourge position origins?


            “Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.” ~ Aristophanes
            "Virescit Vulnere Virtus" ~ Stewart Clan Motto

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post
              Rephrased: What is the reasonable Dark Era for the Prince/Primogen/Harpy/Sheriff/Scourge position origins?
              The positions? A long, long time ago. 'Someone who rules' and 'someone who helps the ruler' isn't exactly a newfangled invention. The specific titles? Far more recent, but entirely regional. Requiem for Regina has a covenant called the Sparrows, who do the same thing harpies would, and Ancient Mysteries and Bloodlines shows how there's rough equivalents in Babylonian days before even the traditions were fleshed out. But more recent than that there's obviously Rome and their Camarilla, which didn't use any of these positions, instead working with their Wings system, though there's some rough similarities with their Tribunes and Harpies and Governors and Princes.
              Last edited by nofather; 10-03-2017, 12:24 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post
                I'd like to clarify the question, as it seems related to how old within the setting that particular vampire civic structure is. Is that correct?

                Rephrased: What is the reasonable Dark Era for the Prince/Primogen/Harpy/Sheriff/Scourge position origins?
                I seem to remember that in Dammation city it said that the neofeudal system was in place since.....well there wasnt a neo prefix.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post

                  I seem to remember that in Dammation city it said that the neofeudal system was in place since.....well there wasnt a neo prefix.
                  The notion of a Prince ruling makes one reminisce the eponymous book.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post

                    But how do you know if these positions exist in a city, is it possible for a city to have a Prince, a Primogen council, a Sheriff, a hound and three Harpies like back then?
                    If you'd like it to, sure. Chicago follows that structure.


                    Rose Bailey
                    Onyx Path Development Producer
                    Cavaliers of Mars Creator | Chronicles of Darkness Lead Developer

                    Retired as forum administrator. Please direct inquiries to the Contact Us link.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post
                      But how do you know if these positions exist in a city, is it possible for a city to have a Prince, a Primogen council, a Sheriff, a hound and three Harpies like back then?
                      Thats pretty much the standard-ish. Damnation city goes into detail on explaining why the neofeudal system work as a narrative tool in vampire and how, is a pretty good read. It has also explanations of the different positions in a city.

                      That said there is a few bumps, for one its description of primogens are weird as its mention being normally 1 for each clan. Considering clan is pretty much irrelevant (unless the Dm make it so) politically when compare to the covenant that choice is odd.

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                      • #41
                        Clans should matter, as each member was picked and trained by another member they would usually by quite close even when they don't share a covenant. On top of that which Disciplines are legal in Elysium would matter to the clans a lot more than the covenants possibly excluding the Carthian Movement. I think many STs just don't think about them as a group because it's easier and often more important to the story to think in terms of Covenant interests.

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                        • #42
                          Covenants and Clans are as important or irrelevant as the story teller makes them. I have played in two games where clan ( family/blood etc ) was more important than the covenant you may or may not be involved in. The whole "government" system was set up with clan heads instead of covenant heads.

                          I have yet to play in a long lasting game where the Covenant was the major focus of the game or character drive. ( key words, "long lasting" )

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
                            Clans should matter, as each member was picked and trained by another member they would usually by quite close even when they don't share a covenant.
                            You could also say the same about the Covenants as they do detail how they prepare/test mortals to embrace into them, and the expectation of a member to embrace someone to join the same covenant as their sire.

                            Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
                            On top of that which Disciplines are legal in Elysium would matter to the clans a lot more than the covenants possibly excluding the Carthian Movement.
                            I always though that Elysium forbid any discipline that can be detected but i never paid much attention to that and i could be thinking of VTM Bloodlines setup.

                            Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
                            I think many STs just don't think about them as a group because it's easier and often more important to the story to think in terms of Covenant interests.
                            Could be because they lack any kind of power structure, default political agenda and common methodology or philosophy to them unless the DM wants to make up one for them from 0.

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                            • #44
                              I am trying to muddle the distinctions and boundaries between the covenant a bit. I want to have a setting where belonging to a covenant really isnt as clear cut as having the status dots would seem to indicate. It helps that i am running a historical setting (1205 venice) so ''everyone'' is part of the invictus and ''everyone'' is part of the lancea sanctum too.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Maitrecorbo View Post
                                I am trying to muddle the distinctions and boundaries between the covenant a bit. I want to have a setting where belonging to a covenant really isnt as clear cut as having the status dots would seem to indicate. It helps that i am running a historical setting (1205 venice) so ''everyone'' is part of the invictus and ''everyone'' is part of the lancea sanctum too.
                                The Lancea already factors that in by having a distinction between Priesthood and lay membership. You could be a vampire of other covenants (maybe not the crone) and still go to church and practice the Spear religion. You would be considered a lay member and that carries a certain status vs not practicing at all.

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