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[2E] Hack – Alternative Clan Banes

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  • [2E] Hack – Alternative Clan Banes

    This is topic about VtR 2E system Hack – if you think that original Clan Banes are okay as they are, do not write here. We talk here about alternative rules to those presented in the 2E corebook, strictly. Telling us how rules as written are good – is pointless. Thanks to Thorbes for idea on Ventrue Bane.

    Daeva

    Clan Bane: Serpents are creatures of passion – and obsession. Each Daeva get’s on Embrace Obsession Condition that cannot be resolved until his Final Death. This Obsession can change it’s target – from idea, person to item – but is always in head of Serpent. When the target of Obsession is destroyed – or become ‘dead’ to particular Clan member – he need to find new target for it – or else lose 1 Willpower point each night without compulsion. Daeva often take their lovers, persons of importance or their former lives Vices as this Obsession. Process of choosing the target for it is mostly unconscious, with Serpent simply starting to act in his obsessive way. By spending 1 Willpower per scene, they can negate mechanical effects of this compulsion. Serpent cannot get Beats from dwelling in this Obsession.

    Ventrue

    Clan Bane: Ventrue are always at the top - and positions of power tend to detach them from other people. Whenever a Lord would gain Willpower for interacting with their Touchstones, roll Humanity. On a Failure, the Ventrue gets nothing from it. For interactions that would normally completly refill the Willpower of the Ventrue, each Success on the Humanity roll grants a Willpower.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 10-24-2017, 07:29 AM.


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  • #2
    I'd link the Deava obsession to their touchstones and require them to pick new touchstones after a Languid induced torpor so they can't dodge it that way.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
      I'd link the Deava obsession to their touchstones and require them to pick new touchstones after a Languid induced torpor so they can't dodge it that way.
      I wanted to recreate a bit of 1E Daeva Clan Weakness openess to 'Sin' - using Vices or ideas as center for Obsession is exactly like this. From what I know, Kindred cannot take Touchstones as Vices or ideas, do they?
      Last edited by wyrdhamster; 10-24-2017, 08:18 AM.


      LGBT+ in CoD games
      Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
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      My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

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      • #4
        It depends on how the vice or idea manifests. Technically touchstones are just a tangible representation of the vampire's mortal existence. For instance, the "idea" is a person's vote being weighted in inverse proportion to their income level in order to achieve universal equality, which was a goal the vampire pursued as a human. (And drew the attention of the Carthian Movement.) That idea could be a touchstone given physical manifestation in the form of a political party leader who campaigns on that premise. The vampire's "meaningful interactions" with that touchstone stem almost exclusively from coordinating or pursuing activities to achieve that goal. When that pursuit no longer becomes a primary goal of the politician, the vampire selects another human campaigning for such an idea to be their touchstone.

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        • #5
          Okay, I will go for my ideas usage in example. I have Uppsala Archbishop from Daeva Clan. His Obsession will be 'Heretics' ( or 'Weak in Faith' ) - but not those found yet, only looking for them, in 'his flock' population. So he cannot make Touchstone from them as they are unknown to him, for now.


          LGBT+ in CoD games
          Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
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          Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
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          • #6
            Was the "idea" of heresy or evangelism something that preoccupied him when he was alive. If it wasn't then it wouldn't really work as a touchstone. If it did, it's still not a touchstone until you give it a tangible form. Does he make it his goal to restore a heretic to the "correct way of thinking"? If so then that idea could be the touchstone made manifest in his most recent project. But once that person "reforms" or dies, it's no longer a touchstone. He has to find a replacement touchstone.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by tsusasi View Post
              Was the "idea" of heresy or evangelism something that preoccupied him when he was alive.
              He was one of most famous Protestant 'witch hunters' of all time.

              Originally posted by tsusasi View Post
              If it did, it's still not a touchstone until you give it a tangible form. Does he make it his goal to restore a heretic to the "correct way of thinking"? If so then that idea could be the touchstone made manifest in his most recent project. But once that person "reforms" or dies, it's no longer a touchstone. He has to find a replacement touchstone.
              And this is exactly why I do not want limit Obsessions to Touchstones. Not everything should resolve around other persons in Clan Banes.
              Last edited by wyrdhamster; 10-24-2017, 09:45 AM.


              LGBT+ in CoD games
              Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
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              Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
              My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

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              • #8
                I've played with the idea of having the daeva clan bane be that the roll to resist addiction (and obsessions now that i think about it) couldnt go higher than humanity.
                Not sure if that would work tho.


                Currently running: VtR - The most serene requiem of Venice
                Currently playing: Being a dad for a 1year old daughter and a newborn son.
                Currently planning: Scion 2nd edition

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                • #9
                  I really don't like the idea of the Daeva Clan Bane being separated from the Humanity system as a general design issue. I feel it's a pretty important part of the flavor of the Clan banes that they're tied to Humanity in someway.

                  As to the specifics:

                  The Daeva one is pretty harsh compared to the others. I'm not sure how this is supposed to work when Clan Banes don't kick in until Humanity 6 is hit the first time, but as written it would be the only one not to do so since it explicitly starts at Embrace. Having to spend 1 WP a scene that doesn't involve your Obsession, or lose 10-again for it, with no way to mitigate this (Gangrel, Mekhet, and Nosferatu can all mitigate their Banes at least partially by having high Humanity), and you don't even get a Beat of the pain in the ass being stuck with a Condition for eternity.

                  The Ventrue one... seems pretty pointless. It seems to assume Touchstones are also True Friends, since you don't gain WP via meaningful interaction with a regular Touchstone. Touchstones only grant WP when you're defending your attachment to them. The WP reward here is important for rewarding players for picking Touchstones that are easy to bring into the story... so Ventrue players just can pick ones less subject to risk and rely on their Masks and Dirges as everyone generally does since those are things you can proactively pursue instead of waiting for a time for them to happen.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Maitrecorbo View Post
                    I've played with the idea of having the daeva clan bane be that the roll to resist addiction (and obsessions now that i think about it) couldnt go higher than humanity.
                    Not sure if that would work tho.
                    Interesting. So in your version, Daeva need to resist going after his Obsession each time he sees it - by rolling Humanity, yes? I think it maybe much better, at least in game design devision. Bonus is that we have very 'VtM Toreador-like' feel to Clan, but not locked on Art only. Still, you need to be able to resist the urge, or it will be too harsh. Taken advices of Heavy Arms in to consideration. Maybe something like this ( bolded is new version of text ):

                    Daeva

                    Clan Bane: Serpents are creatures of passion – and obsession. Once first time reaching Humanity 6, each Daeva get’s an Obsession Condition that cannot be resolved until his Final Death. This Obsession can change it’s target – from idea, person to item – but is always in head of Serpent. When the target of Obsession is destroyed – or become ‘dead’ to particular Clan member – he need to find new target for it – or else lose 1 Willpower point each night without this focus. Daeva often take their lovers, persons of importance or their former lives Vices as this Obsession. Process of choosing the target for it is mostly unconscious, with Serpent simply starting to act in his obsessive way. By rolling their Humanity poll once per scene and having Succes, they can negate mechanical effects of this compulsion. Serpent cannot get Beats from dwelling in this Obsession.


                    LGBT+ in CoD games
                    Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
                    Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
                    Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
                    My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                      Interesting. So in your version, Daeva need to resist going after his Obsession each time he sees it - by rolling Humanity, yes? I think it maybe much better, at least in game design devision. Bonus is that we have very 'VtM Toreador-like' feel to Clan, but not locked on Art only. Still, you need to be able to resist the urge, or it will be too harsh. Taken advices of Heavy Arms in to consideration. Maybe something like this ( bolded is new version of text ):
                      That works too. But what i meant is that whenever a Daeva has to roll to see if it becomes addicted or obsessed with something (i would make the player roll for any fun or pleasurable thing that is important to the character) the dice pool is limited by the daeva humanity.

                      Apologies, my thoughts always get jumbled whenever i try to write them.


                      Currently running: VtR - The most serene requiem of Venice
                      Currently playing: Being a dad for a 1year old daughter and a newborn son.
                      Currently planning: Scion 2nd edition

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                      • #12
                        I knew if I waited, someone would bring the this topic up again. I'd like to take the opportunity to pitch a Venture bane that seems fun.

                        Now, thematically, in my opinion, the Venture win: that is the core of the clan and the bane should reinforce that. It should be something that hurts them when they fail. Perhaps if another gains a dot of status that the Venture had the potential to gain, they brood for a while. This would explain why an Invictus dominated by Venture preaches meritocracy but is so painfully entrenched and why they chase victories, even the ones they don't need.

                        HOWEVER

                        For shits and giggles, let us pursue the 'touchstones are difficult to keep because I objectify everyone around me' angle. This does make some sense as their signature discipline must inform outlook to some extent. What I propose is the following:

                        Venture conscience is their touchstone, and only operates when they are present.

                        The basic mechanics work like so: Venture are psychopathic users without the physical presence of their touchstone. When a touchstone is not present (and I heavily assume human touchstones; we need a patch for the alternatives), then the Venture is detached. You can have three touchstones, but if they didn't witness the murder, then you have a hard time seeing what was so bad about killing a person. Mechanically, this is just detached when rolling but I would expect characters to roleplay the chill psychopathic mindset as well.

                        However, if the touchstones are present, you behave perfectly, or rather as perfectly as your touchstone allows. In mechanically terms, the presence of a touchstone allows you to set your humanity at their integrity. Killing in front of your touchstone is just not done, unless they themselves find it acceptable. Detachment in front of them likely shouldn't lower your humanity (Saints would guilt a Venture into Dragurhood), but it should make you feel as if you've failed them, giving an awful depressive condition. Even better, if you refuse an action because your humanity won't allow it but your touchstone sees no issue with it, the same or variant condition should occur.

                        So basically, the mind-controlling psychopath is a dependent people-pleaser when touchstones are about. I like this for three reasons.

                        One, it creates a dynamic curse. You can embrace the curse and slip into madness, or you can keep your vulnerabilities on show to retain your humanity. Oh and best not let the touchstone die. That kind of ennui is not just forleon, it is very dangerous.

                        Two, it just seems creepy. I keep picturing a Venture prince with a touchstone 'doll' grand-daughter that is always present and that he defers towards. Having the touchstone as a sort of prisoner, sort of ruler just seems wrong, and it gets better when you think about the implications for neonates. Imagine needing your best friend in order to feel guilt. Imagine knowing that they are the difference between you and the beast. Now imagine how you'd react if they feel they needed alone time and you could control minds. Just saying. Although, side note, most find mind rape bad and as such, your go-to Venture dread power actually inspires guilt and trepidation should the touchstone realize what is happening.

                        Three, it makes sense as a bane in one way that makes it worth considering despite my conviction that Venture are defined by victory. Before the Ven, there was the Lare. The Lar was not a lord; the Lar was adviser. What if the bane of the Ven is an historic holdover to the time when what was law was someone else's opinion? What is Ven are less leader, and more solider. They win, not for themselves, but for whom they serve.

                        So yeah, sorry for not commenting on your version but I needed to get that out of me.

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                        • #13
                          Pijavica

                          Clan Bane: The Mutative Curse
                          Humanity is what really shapes Pijavica – they literally become less and less human-like if they lose visage of what it is to be human. They rise from the pool of inhuman goo after Embrace, but starts to become more humanlike each time when they remember how they were human in life. But it’s also the trap for them – if they become too human-like they dissolve, as their Blood is not accused to being like pathetic mortals. Pijavica Clan members must look on their Humanity score – if it’s rose to much, they return to their oozing state. It it will be too low – they also become once more pool of blood. They temporary loose one dot of aviable Physical Attributes by each point from Humanity 5 – it shows up as temporal ‘liquefying’ to bloody flesh more and more of their bodies farrer from Humanity 5 they are. ( See table below ) Most Pijavica looks for ways to transcendent this Curse and to better control Blood in their bodies, so many join Ordo Dracul.

                          Humanity / Attributes Penalty
                          10 / Ooze
                          9 / 2
                          8 / 2
                          7 / 1
                          6 / 1
                          5 / None
                          4 / 1
                          3 / 1
                          2 / 2
                          1 / 2
                          0 / Ooze


                          LGBT+ in CoD games
                          Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
                          Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
                          Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
                          My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

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                          • #14
                            Thematically, I am not sure the difference between obsessed and Dependent. They already get dependent on humans they feed from once their humanity drops below 6. It doesn't happen all the time, there is a roll to resist it already. It can be utterly avoided by feeding on different things, or supernatural things ( werewolves, vampires and changelings, ) and once you hit BP 6, it totally voids the Deava curse anyway as you wouldn't be feeding on mortals anymore.

                            Did you just want to make sure they could only be obsessed/Dependent on one thing at a time?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Vitalis View Post
                              Thematically, I am not sure the difference between obsessed and Dependent. They already get dependent on humans they feed from once their humanity drops below 6. It doesn't happen all the time, there is a roll to resist it already. It can be utterly avoided by feeding on different things, or supernatural things ( werewolves, vampires and changelings, ) and once you hit BP 6, it totally voids the Deava curse anyway as you wouldn't be feeding on mortals anymore.
                              With Daeva Elder Curse you will end in Dependent on many lovers. It's not quite thing I aim for. I target to be more open to things than only sexual obsession.

                              Originally posted by Vitalis View Post
                              Did you just want to make sure they could only be obsessed/Dependent on one thing at a time?
                              Not quiet - rather, to be lead by one thing, but could evolve in to others. In Elder version of Daeva Curse I suppose they would get a long chain of next Obsessions they can enforce.


                              LGBT+ in CoD games
                              Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
                              Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
                              Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
                              My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

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