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Has anyone else noticed the change in mood between 1st and 2nd Edition?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by mikerand View Post
    I really dislike the social maneuvering rules - either roleplay it out or make a single social roll. I do like down and dirty combat though (again, let's do a single roll). Conditions and Beats don't bother me so much, though I am not sure how I feel about derangements just being a simple condition that can be resolved.
    As I've pointed out in the different thread: Social Maneuvering has it's own version of Down & Dirty combat under the header of Forcing Doors.

    It's also worth noting that a Condition being resolved isn't the same as something just going away. Resolving a Condition means it is no longer an active part of your character's dramatic arc. If you resolve an obsession, it means you're character has overcome it in a narrative sense, and thus the mechanics of the Obsession Condition don't apply any more. It doesn't mean your character doesn't care about it any more (if there's a reason for your character to acquire a persistent Condition again, picking up an old one again can be very fun for exploring a character).

    Conditions also fairly solidly avoid being Derangements in that they aren't psychological disorders. They're almost always symptoms that could be from a lasting mental disorder, or stress based trauma responses, or supernatural mind-whammy. You don't take "OCD" as a Condition like you would with Derangements. If you're playing a character with OCD, you take the Obsession Condition a lot (instead of other Conditions) to show your character's struggles with their disorder as they suffer from the extreme stresses of being a protagonist in the Chronicles of Darkness. Or your character has their mental health in pretty good control and isn't something that comes up enough to be worth bringing up through Conditions all the time.

    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    Most Persistent Conditions (i.e. the Conditions that mostly replaces Derangements) doesn't have a Resolve condition.
    This isn't true. However a lot of them have very vague plot driven ones. Persistent Conditions should always have a resolution entry, even if many are difficult to resolve (if a player is even interested in doing so).

    Originally posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    Also the single social roll is the default for most social interactions, they really should have put the rules for doing that FIRST in the book, not have it after the extensive social maneuvering rules.
    Um... the default is first, before Social Maneuvering, in the example actions section. Even Forcing Doors isn't the default, since it goes into calculating Doors and when like Soft Leverage there is a distinct goal you're trying to get the target to do. Soft Leverage, or Forcing Doors, the goal is always to get another character to act in some fashion. You don't need to deal with a guard's Doors if you're just trying to bluff them into thinking you're allowed to be there, because you're not trying to get them to do something.

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    • #32
      You're right. I was looking in CofD where only two of them has listed Resolutions.


      Bloodline: The Stygians
      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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      • #33
        Why don't permanent derangements exist? It is a disservice to people with real mental illness who don't have a resolve condition - no matter how vague. I get it's a game, but even VtM had permanent derangements for those who can't just push past them.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by mikerand View Post
          Why don't permanent derangements exist? It is a disservice to people with real mental illness who don't have a resolve condition - no matter how vague. I get it's a game, but even VtM had permanent derangements for those who can't just push past them.

          You have to understand that we're playing a game here, not a simulation. Games need to be balanced. Games need to be fun. That comes first. Realism comes second.

          But hey, nothing is stopping you from making permanent conditions for your own game!

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          • #35
            Originally posted by mikerand View Post
            Why don't permanent derangements exist? It is a disservice to people with real mental illness who don't have a resolve condition - no matter how vague. I get it's a game, but even VtM had permanent derangements for those who can't just push past them.
            I think a big part of removing the derangement system was exactly that it did not do justice to actual mental illness. Especially as derangements related to morality stats. I also felt that derangements, in a way, glorified mental disease, to the point where acting them out was an impossie task for most players, impossible without making a parody of and without disrespecting actual patients. 2e books have tried to be (even more) sensitive to the plights of the marginalized and the down trodden. I think removing derangements as a core mechanic was part of that.
            Last edited by Howalt; 04-06-2018, 11:33 PM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by mikerand View Post
              Why don't permanent derangements exist?
              They do, for all that the nomenclature of 1e's derangement system was a can of worms that didn't benefit much from conflating the nomenclature of "way your character's personality and mental/social state has been fucked up by the things they've seen and done" and "literal actual mental illnesses."

              "Mute" is a core Persistent Condition, and "Blind" can likewise be. Much like those, there are Conditions that pretty much only resolve through magical intervention if they exist as part of a character in a form that won't easily go away.

              The fact that "a magical effect alters this character so that this effect disappears" is a thing that needs to be accounted for in this setting where those effects can and may exist does not deprive you of the ability to model persistent issues with Persistent Conditions.


              Resident Sanguinary Analyst
              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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              • #37
                In addition to the above, given that the majority of the people I play with have various psychological diagnoses (including myself), anyone that's functioning well enough to play in the default mode of the game, is probably not dealing with mental disorders that are as constantly intrusive as physical Persistent Conditions can be without the same level of disruption.

                Speaking strictly for myself, I deal with a condition where I'm pretty much constantly aware of it. I notice it in dreams... so that's not even a solid escape. I have quirks and little things I do that stem from it. But at the same time, 99% of the time it has zero impact on my ability to function. Between medication, years of therapy, and so on, the vast majority of the time I'm fine. Right now I average about one minor disruptive episode no longer than 5 minutes about once every three months, and a major disruptive episode that might screw up my whole day around once a year.

                So... for me, something like the old Derangement systems don't work. I don't have something I struggle with "once a scene" or "when presented with a reliable stimulus." Conditions work better because it means my symptoms can be replicated just fine. The more stress I'm under, the more likely I fail to cope and I have an episode. In CofD terms, the more often I'd be rolling Breaking Points, the more often I'd be picking up Conditions that are tailored to my mental state, but then after some bad days, I'd be back to "normal."

                Sure, other disorders work better as a more constant thing like a Persistent Condition without a Resolution. But as people have said... you're free to make those if you want one.

                Real people with real mental disorders are better represented by systems that can be flexible because real world mental disorders are not clean simple things that follow simple rules.

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                • #38
                  Meh, I know I've said this many times before, but I liked the mysterious and open feel of early 1e where nothing was set in stone, the Strix didn't exist yet, and a lot was up to the ST to decide. That being said, I am open to using 2e rules with a different set of fluff.

                  See, I didn't like the angsty "Woe is me!" fluff of 1e with things like emotional deadness and the text telling you that anything you do is evil no matter what you do.

                  Naturally, I invoked Rule Zero and kicked all that personal horror stuff to the curb and took a more action horror approach instead. A setting where vampires can be heroic if they choose to be (although it's very difficult to do so) and one that is more "Grand Theft Auto with fangs" or "Black Lagoon with fangs". Now, as I have stated countless times, there is nothing wrong with personal horror but it's just not my cup of tea.

                  So, if I were to play or run Requiem again, I'd be open to using the 2e mechanics, but I would use a different fluff that is more mysterious and vague, similar to that of early 1e, but with some changes, namely the removal of the Strix and the rejection of personal horror as a theme.

                  You have clearly defined heroes (Circle of the Crone, Carthians, Ordo Dracul) and clearly defined villians (Lancea Sanctum, Belial's Brood, Invictus) and the setting takes a more Action-Adventure/Action-Horror approach to the fluff of either 1e or 2e.
                  Last edited by Camilla; 04-07-2018, 08:41 AM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Camilla View Post
                    You have clearly defined heroes (Circle of the Crone, Carthians, Ordo Dracul) and clearly defined villians (Lancea Sanctum, Belial's Brood, Invictus) and the setting takes a more Action-Adventure/Action-Horror approach to the fluff of either 1e or 2e.
                    Debased anarchist witch-cults, destructive "this molotov will inspire social change"-revolutionaries and god-hating crazy scientists are heroic? Heh, the more you know.


                    Edit: You are of course welcome to play Vampire The Requiem however you want, but based on your post I'd suggest sticking to Vampire The Masquerade. That game is clearly more up your ally, given that it's already designed to be an action-horror game with villains and (anti-)heroes, as opposed to an existential personal horror game that is VTR.
                    Last edited by Ventrue Life; 04-07-2018, 08:58 AM.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post

                      Debased pagan witch-cults, destructive "this molotov will inspire social change"-revolutionaries and god-hating crazy scientists are heroic? Heh, the more you know.

                      You can always invoke Rule Zero to change the fluff. I always do.

                      One, Paganism is not inherently evil.

                      Two, in my games the Carthians support democracy and NOT anarchism.

                      Three, there's nothing wrong with science. Science rules!

                      Even with that aside, you can always invoke Rule Zero to change the fluff. If you don't like something in an RPG, change it! Eat the chicken and throw away the bone.

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                      • #41
                        I have to say, I don’t see how any of the covenants are clearly defined as heroic. Be that in 1e or 2e... Perhaps somwhat heroic from the poc of kindred. Perhaps! Definitely not from the perspective of the kine though.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Camilla View Post


                          You can always invoke Rule Zero to change the fluff. I always do.

                          One, Paganism is not inherently evil.

                          Two, in my games the Carthians support democracy and NOT anarchism.

                          Three, there's nothing wrong with science. Science rules!

                          Even with that aside, you can always invoke Rule Zero to change the fluff. If you don't like something in an RPG, change it! Eat the chicken and throw away the bone.

                          No, there is of course nothing inherently wrong with paganism, democracy or science. They are all things I accept and think are cool in real life.

                          But the Circle of the Crone isn't just a pagan cult, it's an debased anarchist witch cult, actively sacrificing their humanity to learn cruac rituals (which isn't part of the fluff, that's part of the mechanics).

                          The Carthians aren't just democrats, they are called the Firebrands for a reason.

                          The Ordo Dracul isn't just a science branch, they are do science without moral constraints and the resulting Coils they develop actively help them to oppress their fellow vampires while giving God the middle finger.


                          But as I said (later edited into my previous post), you are of course welcome to play Vampire The Requiem however you want. Nobody will stop you. I certainly won't. But based on your post I would suggest sticking to Vampire The Masquerade. That game is clearly more up your ally, given that it's already designed to be an action-horror game with villains and (anti-)heroes, as opposed to being an existential personal horror game that is VTR.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Howalt View Post
                            I have to say, I don’t see how any of the covenants are clearly defined as heroic. Be that in 1e or 2e... Perhaps somwhat heroic from the poc of kindred. Perhaps! Definitely not from the perspective of the kine though.

                            I'm invoking Rule Zero to make certain covenants heroic in my games. That is what I was trying to say.

                            As I have stated countless times before, I reject personal horror in my games.

                            ​And Ventrue Life I do play Masquerade as well, and I also Rule Zero that game as well, removing the metaplot from my games.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Camilla View Post


                              I'm invoking Rule Zero to make certain covenants heroic in my games. That is what I was trying to say.

                              As I have stated countless times before, I reject personal horror in my games.
                              Ah, I thought you meant as written. Carry on, soldier!

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Howalt View Post

                                Ah, I thought you meant as written. Carry on, soldier!

                                Can do! Will do!

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