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  • #16
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post

    Nobody wants to see my nine page, colour coded, note filled monstrosity of a google document. Not even my co-players wants to look at it.
    I do! Pretty please? :-)

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
      It's almost like the book comes right out and says as much and your tone is needlessly hostile on the matter in light of that, yes.
      And you misunderstood my tone, Satchel, which is great disappointment, primarily, at the missed opportunities of the book. That said, this is the internet and readers are not in my head so if you're offended I apologize. There are things to like about Thousand Years, and the XP table is one of them if only for the shield it creates around the ST. I just really wish there were better sidebars for how to plot out activity, beyond the Rule Zero sentence you cite.

      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
      My Changeling playtest game hit about 20 Experiences in a period that narratively covered about a week, but even ignoring the part poor pacing played in that I am not going to make the claim that a period of exceptionally high activity in that freehold is representative of how rapidly a character could normally expect to advance in a decade; a Vampire game covering hundreds of years hits on the same issues, and the use of flashpoints and similar devices is not just there to keep players from getting bogged down in the minutia of their centuries-long backstory.
      Indeed, and those flashbacks, along with spinning the web, are some of the useful and thoughtful ways the book give for structuring action in an elder game. An ST building an NPC elder can do the same, on the same premise: that crisis brought out the best in the character and gave the greatest learning (at highest cost--some useful hooks for later).

      --Khanwulf

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      • #18
        One other minor bit that might justify lower-than-expected Elder XP: Humanity costs. After that long, they are bound to hit a number of Detachment rolls, and statistically wouldn't have succeeded at all of them. So, some of the XP is likely going into "treading water" metaphorically, Humanity-wise.
        Last edited by Vent0; 03-26-2018, 06:27 PM.


        Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
        Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Tessie View Post

          Nobody wants to see my nine page, colour coded, note filled monstrosity of a google document. Not even my co-players wants to look at it.

          Au contraire mon ami! I would, if you want to share it that is =)

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          • #20
            So all of this said - is anyone willing to show me the stats of their NPC Princes or other elders in their games please? The XP total and BP is beside the point, I get that, I am just looking to get an idea of what other people are doing. Thank you in advance.

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            • #21
              I, quite honestly, don't fully stat out NPCs unless I want to do it just for fun because I like building characters. In such a case, it's usually a matter of making a character for fun and dropping it in the game where they'd fit rather than making a NPC explicitly for a given game.

              When I create an NPC for the game, I determine what their pool would be for a given thing based on how good at it I feel they should be (2e is pretty good at giving guidelines there) on the fly, and then I write it down for consistency in the future. I don't do this ahead of time. I do it as-needed. I've found this works a lot better than trying to plan ahead with full stat blocks.

              NPCs don't really need to be built with the same rules as PCs. They exist to serve the story and should have whatever makes sense or is necessary for plot.

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              • #22
                Yeah I'm with Maina on this one. Completely stated npcs is a rare thing indeed. For me it's usually BP, disciplines, and some rolls stated, most other thing is fluff text, description, motivation, characteristics and such. Most npcs don't get that much even, most things written down is for consistency. Stating an npc takes time, time better spent on research or planning instead.
                The more stated an NPC is in my game, that means it's either a main NPC that is expected to be around both a long time and often, and in situations where stats would be needed, or it's from a splat I'm not as comfortable with rules-wise and setting-wise.

                And those i do have is written down in notebooks, in swedish with text and stats all upside-down.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by mikerand View Post
                  So all of this said - is anyone willing to show me the stats of their NPC Princes or other elders in their games please? The XP total and BP is beside the point, I get that, I am just looking to get an idea of what other people are doing. Thank you in advance.
                  Mostly do what Mania does, unless I really like the character. For example: Aad Gortig. He’s an npc in my Primacy playtest. There’s a bunch of stuff on the sheet that might therefore be unfamiliar, but you can get the general gist. The 30 points in “asset skills” translate to some 15 points in a combination of mortal allies, contacts, staff, and retainer merits.

                  The guy’s a little over 400 years old. Inspired by the Lord of Paradise Lake. Some more background bits:


                  Was woken up from torpor only decades ago, to help mend relations between South Holland’s various feuding Lordly factions.

                  A fisherman in life. Embraced for his tenacious spirit at the end of the 16th century.

                  Aad spend his first 60 years a land based journeyman for the Company, which meant he was primarily knocking skulls and breaking legs. His humanity bore the brunt of the consequences and soon Aad succumbed to the pull of torpor. It would turn out a relatively brief sleep, though at the time Aad’d have begged to differ.

                  Over the course of the next twohundred years he would slowly drift away from the Company and its interests, to grow into - or perhaps rediscover - his independent, stubborn and powerful person. Along the way he flirted with Draconic occultism, though that was plainly just a phase. For much of his existence he’s prayed to the God of Abraham, attending masses but never taking upon himself the role of a Sanctified preacher.

                  Aad’s acted out a good few lives, some more briefly than others. A few highlights, in no particular order:

                  A rags to riches spice merchant
                  A prison warden for the criminally insane
                  A pig farmer
                  A moderately successful theater director
                  A publican

                  Currently Aad’s been content with consolidating the political power that’s been thrown in his lap. He hasa comfortable existence, back in the village of his birth, where he masquerades as a property owner of family homes and appartment estates.
                  Link to sheet:
                  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...ckTpUBKoaELE6I

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                  • #24
                    Thanks Howalt - exactly what I was looking for, just an idea of what it should look like.

                    ​I agree to some degree that all NPC's don't need to be completely fleshed out, but if the coterie / party / whatever decides to do something crazy and unexpected I want to be ready - I don't want to be just making up dice pools that I can't at least sort of back up. I want to have some idea of what they can do before hand.

                    ​I can see how a Storyteller would just arbitrarily just say the Prince has a dice pool of 20 in every roll because it's easier and they don't want their chronicle derailed, but I like to take a more realistic approach and at least give the players a chance if they really want to try to take them out.
                    Last edited by mikerand; 03-28-2018, 05:30 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by mikerand View Post
                      So all of this said - is anyone willing to show me the stats of their NPC Princes or other elders in their games please? The XP total and BP is beside the point, I get that, I am just looking to get an idea of what other people are doing. Thank you in advance.
                      Michaela
                      Prince of New York City

                      Ventrue - Invictus
                      BP 3

                      Mental Attributes: Intelligence 5, Wits 3, Resolve 5
                      Physical Attributes: Strength 2 (3), Dexterity 3, Stamina 3 (6)
                      Social Attributes: Presence 3, Manipulation 3, Composure 5
                      Mental Skills: Academics 5 (Specialties: Finance, Law), Computer 1, Crafts 0, Investigation 3, Medicine 0, Occult 2, Politics 5 (Specialties: Bureaucracy, Prestation), Science 0
                      Physical Skills: Athletics 2, Brawl 1, Drive 0, Firearms 1, Larceny 1, Stealth 1, Survival 1, Weaponry 1
                      Social Skills: Animal Ken 0, Empathy 3, Expression 3, Intimidation 3, Persuasion 3, Socialize 5, Streetwise 1, Subterfuge 3

                      Disciplines: Animalism 1, Auspex 1, Dominate 5, Resilience 3, Vigor 1
                      Devotions: Chain of Command, Conditioning, Stalwart Servant, Summoning

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                      • #26
                        To be honest if I were making Elder npcs for games I would always assume they would have at least one or two skills maxed out.

                        Then tailor things more specifically based on their personality, what their role is supposed to be in the story, and if antagonistic how much of a threat do I want them to be.

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                        • #27
                          The starting XP table is low-balled, yes. The starting XP tables have always been low-balled in CofD. Because they’re meant for building PCs and PCs need somewhere to go. If you’re making NPCs, you don’t need to worry about XP. You don’t even really need to give them stats beyond a few dice pools for likely rolls, but if you really want to stat them up like PCs, just give them whatever you need them to have.


                          Onyx Path Forum Moderator

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by mikerand View Post
                            So all of this said - is anyone willing to show me the stats of their NPC Princes or other elders in their games please? The XP total and BP is beside the point, I get that, I am just looking to get an idea of what other people are doing. Thank you in advance.
                            Alright, before I show you the sheet of my Prince of London in 1888, I want to hand out a fair warning to my players who might be reading this; DON'T READ ANY FURTHER, YOU'RE GOING TO RUIN YOUR ROLEPLAY EXPERIENCE FOR YOURSELF IF YOU DO!

                            Now, with that out of the way; I'll explain first how the current Prince got into power before I show his stats:

                            Some general history of my campaign setting to give you context:

                            My campaign takes place in 19th Century London. A very superstitious era, but also an era of science and innovation. the Ordo Dracul understood the era better than anyone else. Not the Invictus and Lancea et Sanctum, they were stuck in their ways and did not understand the developments in human society. The Ordo did, and they grew more and more powerful, which scared the Invictus and Sanctum, who were still in power at the time around 1835. Scared as they were, they started prosecuting the Ordo, putting sanctions on them, limiting them, blocking them at every turn, trying to turn them into the black sheep of London. The Carthians were the new kids on the block and were pretty sick of the Invictus and Sanctum. Inspired by Karl Marx, they wanted to rise up against them. The Ordo made use of that. They formed an alliance with the Carthians and supplied them with arms, intel and men. The Carthians went to war, the Ordo looked from the sidelines, until the Sanctum saw what was going on and attacked the Ordo Dracul. The Ordo was then forced to go to war as well. The Carthians and Sanctum suffered heavy losses, but the war ended when the Ordo leader killed the Invictus Prince of London in 1858. The Invictus then surrendered and pleaded for a partnership. The Ordo accepted. They would let the Invictus continue to rule London, but in turn they would have to accept an Ordo Prince and committee.


                            Some general information about the new Prince of London:

                            The vampire elder the Ordo Dracul pushed forward to become the new Prince of London was Edmund Gregory Drake, an entrepreneur, corporatist, financier and philanthropist. He is the founder and chief executive of Drake Industries. In 1835 he founded Drake Industries as a mining corporation. In 1854 over 32% of England's pig iron trade was owned by Drake Industries. In 1861 Drake Industries also started manufacturing and shipping firearms to the United States of America. In 1876 Drake distinguished himself as one of Great Britain's wealthiest men.
                            Drake is also known for his generous donations to Model Dwellings Company—an organization that sought to improve the housing conditions of the working classes by building new homes for them. In 1879 Drake officially received the honourary title of Freedom Honoris Causa, Honourary Freeman of the City of London.

                            He is the kind of Kindred who has a large footprint in human society and is actually pretty famous. This is a risky game he plays, but not impossible in a time period before the internet and cellphones with cameras.

                            In Kindred society he is a highly respected Ventrue, mostly concerned with progress and keeping up with human society. He wants the Kindred to flourish like the humans are flourishing. He claims to be a man of science who believes science is the future for both Kindred and Kine alike. At least, that's the mask he wears. In reality he is a filthy diablerist Gangrel who diablerized a Ventrue a long time ago and has been pretending to be a Ventrue ever since. He is currently trying to ascend his vampiric state by collecting and fully developing all known Disciplines and Devotions. Some Mekhet know this, but they all keep silent about it. He also studies ancient Kindred history and actually knows a lot about the Strix, which is his primary drive to become as powerful as possible because he is secretly scared of the Strix and their power.
                            Some Ordo Dracul members believe Edmund Drake is a Childe of Dracula himself.



                            His sheet:




                            His Portrait:




                            EDIT: I updated his background and sheet after getting feedback. The changes I made can be found here.
                            Last edited by Ventrue Life; 03-30-2018, 11:19 PM.

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                            • #29
                              And I thought my elder npcs was a bit overpowered

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Poseur View Post
                                And I thought my elder npcs was a bit overpowered

                                Well, in my defense (assuming your comment is a reply to me), he's a 400 years old Prince, supposedly the Childe of Dracula (probably not true but enough Kindred believe it and they wouldn't believe it without a reason) and he's a filthy diablerist. I do not expect the players to beat him anytime soon. And when they do face him, I want it to be a challenge where he alone could take on the entire coterie and it would still be a "fair" fight.

                                That being said, I am thinking about lowering his Blood Potency to 5. He has a couple of Kindred underlings he could drink from, but realistically he would not be able to function properly if he's addicted to vampire vitae.

                                On the other hand, this nasty side effect of having high a BP and being forced to drink from other Kindred is a pretty severe weakness and could actually be a really interesting thing to explore. It could be the perfect way to defeat him.

                                What do you think?

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