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  • #31
    Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post


    Well, in my defense (assuming your comment is a reply to me), he's a 400 years old Prince, supposedly the Childe of Dracula (probably not true but enough Kindred believe it and they wouldn't believe it without a reason) and he's a filthy diablerist. I do not expect the players to beat him anytime soon. And when they do face him, I want it to be a challenge where he alone could take on the entire coterie and it would still be a "fair" fight.

    That being said, I am thinking about lowering his Blood Potency to 5. He has a couple of Kindred underlings he could drink from, but realistically he would not be able to function properly if he's addicted to vampire vitae.

    On the other hand, this nasty side effect of having high a BP and being forced to drink from other Kindred is a pretty severe weakness and could actually be a really interesting thing to explore. It could be the perfect way to defeat him.

    What do you think?

    Well for starters, I wasn't criticising your choice of stating your Prince or the amount of exp he has. I was only pointing out the difference between tables. In my mind it makes a bit more sense if he's that old, surely. Every table handles stating npcs differently. Especially in a game that has few guidelines.
    But well, now that you answered i feel like a should contribute some.

    So, I wouldn't reallt max out all those disciplines, maybe two or perhaps three five ones, and spread the rest out a bit. Even though it's his goal to master every one. Can't be a master in everything. The same goes for his combat stats, he doesn't seem at all like a combat oriented character in his description so why have all those high stats. Sure maybe your group beats everything in a fight and that's fine, and then it might be appropriate to have those, but unless that's the case I find it weird that the elder has so high a value in combat skills and disciplines.
    I'd personally as well lower intimidation in favour for persuasion as he's a businessman first and foremost

    And he really can't put anyone to believe that he's a Ventrue unless he dominates the shit out of everyone that takes a blood oath towards him, taste for blood is a thing and almost everyone would notice that he's not a Venture. He seems like a dude that over-uses the blood oath, given he's a coil of the voivode master. Auspex is a thing as well, and questions about the biggest secrets the prince have would most certainly point toward both amaranth and clan impersonation. So in the best of worlds, that would be horribly difficult to keep up as a high standing and high profile kindred known not only in his city but probably well beyond England famous.

    I would as well consider one or two things that are supernatural in his base kit, like a six or seven dot attribute or skill, (or maybe that's just a limiting thing on the sheet itself).
    And I would maybe spread some allies around, maybe go with a few dots of Allies Kindred, and I wonder if he really needs all that many spheres of contacts. Maybe add a few dots of staff just to have some retainer/ghouls that can act as "meatshields" and basic things and keep a higher retainer as he's second or something. Someone as smart as a Prince that is also very social in he's mind set and very much a politician would probably not have such a powerful retainer as a "stand in" in his place, he seems like a more hands on the politics kind a guy that want to know and not have a servant in power that could keep secrets and make shady deals behind his back (that is however a perfect flaw for the character, overconfidence in him self that he wouldn't see betrayal coming).

    And the BP, I personally don't mind that at all, i just give out what would be reasonably based on the activity on the character, if he's committing amaranth and has lived active for that many years, keep it, it even implies that he has slept in torpor to lower it during the years he's been active. And it's a interesting flaw to explore as well as a weakness, it's way harder to get vitae from kindred then from mortals, even if you're the Prince. However, BP6+ Elders are not addicted to kindred vitae, they're immune to that, the can still be bound though.

    Just some thoughts.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Poseur View Post


      Well for starters, I wasn't criticising your choice of stating your Prince or the amount of exp he has. I was only pointing out the difference between tables. In my mind it makes a bit more sense if he's that old, surely. Every table handles stating npcs differently. Especially in a game that has few guidelines.
      But well, now that you answered i feel like a should contribute some.

      So, I wouldn't reallt max out all those disciplines, maybe two or perhaps three five ones, and spread the rest out a bit. Even though it's his goal to master every one. Can't be a master in everything. The same goes for his combat stats, he doesn't seem at all like a combat oriented character in his description so why have all those high stats. Sure maybe your group beats everything in a fight and that's fine, and then it might be appropriate to have those, but unless that's the case I find it weird that the elder has so high a value in combat skills and disciplines.
      I'd personally as well lower intimidation in favour for persuasion as he's a businessman first and foremost

      And he really can't put anyone to believe that he's a Ventrue unless he dominates the shit out of everyone that takes a blood oath towards him, taste for blood is a thing and almost everyone would notice that he's not a Venture. He seems like a dude that over-uses the blood oath, given he's a coil of the voivode master. Auspex is a thing as well, and questions about the biggest secrets the prince have would most certainly point toward both amaranth and clan impersonation. So in the best of worlds, that would be horribly difficult to keep up as a high standing and high profile kindred known not only in his city but probably well beyond England famous.

      I would as well consider one or two things that are supernatural in his base kit, like a six or seven dot attribute or skill, (or maybe that's just a limiting thing on the sheet itself).
      And I would maybe spread some allies around, maybe go with a few dots of Allies Kindred, and I wonder if he really needs all that many spheres of contacts. Maybe add a few dots of staff just to have some retainer/ghouls that can act as "meatshields" and basic things and keep a higher retainer as he's second or something. Someone as smart as a Prince that is also very social in he's mind set and very much a politician would probably not have such a powerful retainer as a "stand in" in his place, he seems like a more hands on the politics kind a guy that want to know and not have a servant in power that could keep secrets and make shady deals behind his back (that is however a perfect flaw for the character, overconfidence in him self that he wouldn't see betrayal coming).

      And the BP, I personally don't mind that at all, i just give out what would be reasonably based on the activity on the character, if he's committing amaranth and has lived active for that many years, keep it, it even implies that he has slept in torpor to lower it during the years he's been active. And it's a interesting flaw to explore as well as a weakness, it's way harder to get vitae from kindred then from mortals, even if you're the Prince. However, BP6+ Elders are not addicted to kindred vitae, they're immune to that, the can still be bound though.

      Just some thoughts.

      You are absolutely 100% right and I feel kinda stupid that I forgot and/or didn't know about the many many ways of knowing someone's clan.

      I took your advice and changed his sheet and also a bit of his background.
      - He is no longer a pretend-Ventrue, he's an actual Ventrue now.
      - I lowered most of his Disciplines except for the in-clan ones.
      - His Stand-In Retainer (who is a body-double blood-bonded to him) is now only 3 dots.
      - I gave him 5 dots in Staff, lowered his Contacts to 4 (his contacts are; Bank of England, Press, Government and Metropolitan Police).
      - I changed his Allies. He now has 4 dots in Allies (Kindred), 3 dots in Allies (Press) and 2 dots in Allies (Government). I imagined that he got his contacts first and started building allies out of his contacts second.
      - I lowered his physical stats a little.
      - I lowered his Intimidate and increased his Persuasion.

      And yes, this is the Roll20 sheet, which cannot go above 5 dots. Which is fine, I mean, I figured that Mr. Drake is already OP enough as it is, he'd be even more OP if I started increasing his stats to 6 or 7.

      This is his new sheet now:


      Last edited by Ventrue Life; 03-30-2018, 11:21 PM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post

        This is his new sheet now:
        Looks like a prince and someone no neonate vamp should imagine taking on--especially head-to-head--without comparable backup in age and wisdom.

        As noted in previous comments, experienced PCs can surpass solid NPCs like this with enough extended play over relatively little in-game time. That normally (but not always) means the PC is a stat-monster capable of ripping apart antagonists with their bare hands, but quite vulnerable in other spheres that develop more slowly. Stats for NPCs, therefore, are a helping-hand to you as ST, so you don't have to wing it; in actuality the challenge of facing down NPC X or Y will/should be equivalent to their position in the story--nothing more or less.

        Happy gaming!

        --Khanwulf

        Comment


        • #34
          Ventrue Life - Thank you!!! Yes, I always thought the Ordo Dracul was underrated when it came to how many princes they had. Maybe the Ordo Dracul cares the least about ruling, but it is scary how personally powerful they can be, especially with the Coils of Voivode. I think I am going to have a Ordo Dracul prince too in my chronicle.

          Comment


          • #35
            Keep in mind that with Secrets of the Covenants it's feasible to have a Prince who is mostly Ordo and partly Invictus. At least 4/1 status split, perhaps 3/2 (don't remember without review). In any case, while the Covenants frown on split loyalties, they are also pragmatic enough to not toss the neonate out with the blood-bath: they get to claim X is "their" prince of Y city... even if another team can do the same.

            Further, Ordo mix well with just about any other Covenant, mostly because they're about personal advancement in the Long Night, versus religious experience or political order.

            --Khanwulf

            Comment


            • #36
              Except Lancea et Sanctum. There's something in declaring God as your enemy that draws the ire of your Christian/Abrahamitic peers.

              In historical chronicles where Ordo Dracul is not yet a Covenant (but not before its creation) it'd be possible to have Status 5 in your chosen Covenant and Mystery Cult Initiation 5 in Ordo Dracul.


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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              • #37
                Khanwulf and Tessie you are both absolutely right.

                Although I have not written it down on his sheet anywhere, I did write in the Prince's backstory that he allowed the Invictus to continue to rule London after he and the Ordo Dracul took over. It's just that now the Invictus answers to an Voivode Prince and his committee. This way, the Invictus still get to play governors over Kindred society, while the Ordo Dracul has a finger on the pulse. It's not too different from what Louis did when Napoleon conquered The Netherlands and put his brother Louis on the throne. Louis kept most of the existing government and infrastructure of The Netherlands, it's just that now he is in charge of it all.

                How does the Invictus react to all of this? Poorly, but it could be worse. Of course it is a great insult to the Invictus that someone from the Ordo Dracul is now calling the shots within their city and their covenant, but on the other hand; at least they got to keep their positions and status, so it could be worse.
                Last edited by Ventrue Life; 04-03-2018, 01:03 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Bit of a necro here, but I’ve recently found myself needing to make a lot of fully-statted NPCs, and I thought I’d share the technique I’ve been using, which has so far been consistently producing characters that I feel are right in the sweet spot of having high enough stats to do what I need them to do, but restricted enough to feel fair. And I’ve been using it for characters of all ages rather than just elders.

                  I start from the elder creation rules from 1kYoN. 3/4/5 Attributes, 11/7/4 skills, 5 Specialties, 10 dots of Merits, 3 dots of Disciplines (2 of which must be in-Clan), one free Devotion with no more than 5 dots worth of prerequisites, Humanity 3 + 0-3 depending on the character’s answers to the three questions about their relations with mortals. If that results in Humanity 6, I give them a Touchstone ar 6, otherwise I give them a Faded Touchstone and a Simulacrum at one less than their Humanity. If they’ve lives more than a human lifetime, I give them an Anachronism. Instead of rolling for Blood Potency or starting it at 5, I assign it based on Rank. 1 for neonates, 2 for Around the Block, 3 for Ancilla, 4 for Rank Elder, etc. I give them bonus Exp for their Rank as per the guidelines in the core book, plus an extra 0-20 depending on their answers to Climbing the Ladder and Spinning the Web (for expediency’s sake I turn each step into simple question like “has this character been taken advantage of by another vampire? Has this character joined a Covenant? Has this character fallen into Torpor?” etc. rather than going through the whole process.) Finally, I give each character one of the Arcs from 1kYoN for free. That means your standard Around the Block character is getting somewhere around 60 exp worth of goodies and your standard Mover and Shaker is getting somewhere around 120, which feels pretty good.


                  Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                  My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

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                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Charlaquin - You go through Climbing the Ladder for NPC Elder Vampires too? Your NPC's must have a lot of depth. I do own
                    1kYoN, but I mostly skimmed it - I will give it a full read this weekend. Thank you!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by mikerand View Post
                      Charlaquin - You go through Climbing the Ladder for NPC Elder Vampires too? Your NPC's must have a lot of depth. I do own
                      1kYoN, but I mostly skimmed it - I will give it a full read this weekend. Thank you!
                      I don’t normally go through the whole process for every NPC. As I mentioned earlier, I don’t even give most NPCs full character sheets most of the time, but in this case I found myself needing to do so for a project I am working on. But rather than doing the full steps of climbing the ladder and spinning the web, I turn each step into a yes or no question. Instead of “tell us about the time when you...” I simply ask “has this character...” For most elders, the answer is yes to every step of climbing the ladder, but if there did happen to be a no they wouldn’t get the XP for it. For example, there’s the Leave a Witness step, I could potentially see an elder who was careful enough to never have done that.


                      Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                      My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                      Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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