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  • Questions about Dominate

    Greetings.

    I would appreciate some clarificatins about dominate devotions, summoning and conditioning.

    a) Summoning : a successfull summoning means that the target do whatever necessary to reach his summoner. Even if he hates the summoner his will is to reach him by all means. Is it valid for the target to let others know that he has been summoned in order to stop him reaching his summmoner? E.G "i feel a pull from Peter, pleease help me cause he will kill me"? or he will lie, used disciplines, cunning, etc to ensura that no one will stop him to meet his summoner?

    b) Conditioning : If the Dominate user does not abuse commands, is it possible that Subservient condition will pass unnoticed so the vampire wont be obviusly mesmerized? Is there another way to detect conditioning without auspecx 4 power? Is it detectable via dominate power ? Is it valid to use Entombed Command in order to command a conditioned vampire tou dissobey his "master" ?





  • #2
    Originally posted by hellcaster View Post
    Greetings.

    I would appreciate some clarificatins about dominate devotions, summoning and conditioning.

    a) Summoning : a successfull summoning means that the target do whatever necessary to reach his summoner. Even if he hates the summoner his will is to reach him by all means. Is it valid for the target to let others know that he has been summoned in order to stop him reaching his summmoner? E.G "i feel a pull from Peter, pleease help me cause he will kill me"? or he will lie, used disciplines, cunning, etc to ensura that no one will stop him to meet his summoner?

    First, Summoning isn't a "Dominate" devotion, it could be majesty too.

    A successful summoning means you weren't able to be stopped. When it fails that means something stopped you. So on a failed roll you could say "I feel Peter, stop me." Whatever the reason the summoning succeeds, it means you go and you go willingly. Remember the fluff isn't just fluff. It is meant to be part of the discipline. You want to go, you need to go. You wont talk your way out of it. So yes. You will lie, use disciplines, cunning etc to make sure that you are not stopped.

    "Summoning isn’t instant — it can’t account for natural disasters —but the victim will happily empty her bank accounts and steal from friends or family to make the trip."


    Originally posted by hellcaster View Post
    b) Conditioning : If the Dominate user does not abuse commands, is it possible that Subservient condition will pass unnoticed so the vampire wont be obviusly mesmerized? Is there another way to detect conditioning without auspecx 4 power? Is it detectable via dominate power ? Is it valid to use Entombed Command in order to command a conditioned vampire tou dissobey his "master" ?
    Yes, It is quite possible to have the condition go unnoticed. you can give commands as if they were mesmerized but they are not, so they don't go all blank.. They are otherwise, completely normal.

    Ways of Detection: Empathy checks, Auspex, Blood Magic (divination), Observe the vampire doing it. etc. You could Dominate them to make them tell you if they have been conditioned, but they likely do not know themselves, so that would be really situational, otherwise dominating them wouldnt just tell you they are already under someone else's control.

    You can use Entombed Command, or any other version of dominate to make them do whatever you want them to do. It would just become a clash of wills to make them do something that conflicts with what is already done.

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    • #3
      In my view a summoned pnc can say who has called him. They know who is calling them and they just have an emotional compulsion to go.

      "Ehy Jonh where are you going"
      "I must go. He is calling me"
      "Who? Who is calling you"
      "That fucking bastard of Samuel"

      Then how other pnc react is up to the master. If they try to stop him, he would probably fight his way to Samuel. "Let me go as***le, I need to go... I need..."

      Otherwise they could just follow him making a countertrap to the summoner.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Marcus View Post
        In my view a summoned pnc can say who has called him. They know who is calling them and they just have an emotional compulsion to go.

        "Ehy Jonh where are you going"
        "I must go. He is calling me"
        "Who? Who is calling you"
        "That fucking bastard of Samuel"

        Then how other pnc react is up to the master. If they try to stop him, he would probably fight his way to Samuel. "Let me go as***le, I need to go... I need..."

        The problem is that can easily abused by players. If it is possible for anyone to "create obstructions" in order to avoid reaching his summoner while is been summoned then the devotion is practicly useless

        Comment


        • #5
          Well... I really don't see why it's useless. People don't live with their allies h24. And they for sure will not make a call to advice the allies that they are subjected to a mistical compulsion. If they are alone they would just go. Even a coteries shouldn't spent 100% time togheter but just meet to deal.with the coterie business.
          I'd actually consider this devotion as a kind of the power shown in dracula where Mina had this compulsion to go to Vlad and the other member stopped her at first and follow her to make a trap after.
          Last edited by Marcus; 03-30-2018, 07:56 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by hellcaster View Post


            The problem is that can easily abused by players. If it is possible for anyone to "create obstructions" in order to avoid reaching his summoner while is been summoned then the devotion is practicly useless
            It's only useless if your only reason for having it is limited to using it as an unavoidable magical noose to drag individual enemies to you and your associates to effortlessly slaughter and your would-be victim decides they aren't interested in being your next kill, so they decide to bring back up in the form of their own armed allies.
            It works just fine if you're trying to summon actual allies if you get kidnapped, lost, or find yourself in a hostage situation and can't use your cell phone. It's also good for utterly boring stuff like maintaining an armed security team for social gatherings and elysiums where armed and armored guards standing around in plain view everywhere would be considered gauche or against domain law.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Marcus View Post
              And they for sure will not make a call to advice the allies that they are subjected to a mistical compulsion. If they are alone they would just go.
              I am 100% OK about that, i totaly agree.

              As for the uselessness...
              Imo Summonig is the ultimate way for a Vampire to express his superiority over his friends or foes. The thougt that when the time comes, his will is strong enough to enforce the victim
              to appear in front of him and hear his word.

              Ofc there are more uses for this devotion, but the mood is not the same




              Comment


              • #8
                As I understand--and correct me if I'm wrong, you can use a Willpower expenditure to represent the internal struggle a character undergoes to resist a summons. If that fails--perhaps after a scene or moment of anguished terror that something is impeding on their will--they decide to go, they may not even recognize the source of the need to go, go now! but their abnormal behavior will attract attention unless the character clearly understands such would impede their travel.

                For example, clearing out the family's bank account when you have a poor idea of how to forge the signatures/whatever needed, and there's a good risk of police restraint, might push the character to pursue other means of quick cash. You're not rendered stupid: sleepwalking off cliffs like in some film or other, but you do need go, go directly, and drop whatever else you were doing that is immediately rendered irrelevant and trivial. (Even if it really isn't.)

                (Note: if you wanted to flavor the Dominate and Majesty versions differently, you could totally make Dominate about sleepwalking through the process of going, and Majesty about a raw, consuming primal need to go.)

                Since we're talking about this... if you expend a Willpower to resist a summons, and succeed, does that render the character immune to summons by that vampire for the remainder of the scene? The night? Or just... um, until the vamp realizes you're not coming (which could be next round if he's watching/aware)? --Be kind, I may be conflating rules for such things going all the way back to VtM....

                --Khanwulf

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
                  As I understand--and correct me if I'm wrong, you can use a Willpower expenditure to represent the internal struggle a character undergoes to resist a summons. If that fails--perhaps after a scene or moment of anguished terror that something is impeding on their will--they decide to go, they may not even recognize the source of the need to go, go now! but their abnormal behavior will attract attention unless the character clearly understands such would impede their travel.

                  For example, clearing out the family's bank account when you have a poor idea of how to forge the signatures/whatever needed, and there's a good risk of police restraint, might push the character to pursue other means of quick cash. You're not rendered stupid: sleepwalking off cliffs like in some film or other, but you do need go, go directly, and drop whatever else you were doing that is immediately rendered irrelevant and trivial. (Even if it really isn't.)

                  (Note: if you wanted to flavor the Dominate and Majesty versions differently, you could totally make Dominate about sleepwalking through the process of going, and Majesty about a raw, consuming primal need to go.)

                  Since we're talking about this... if you expend a Willpower to resist a summons, and succeed, does that render the character immune to summons by that vampire for the remainder of the scene? The night? Or just... um, until the vamp realizes you're not coming (which could be next round if he's watching/aware)? --Be kind, I may be conflating rules for such things going all the way back to VtM....

                  --Khanwulf
                  Personally I really like the idea of flavoring the devotion based on whether the base is Dominate or Majesty and if I remember what my ST told me correctly I think if you successfully resist a summons you're free from it for at least the rest of that night. Making it possible for the vampire to try again later on.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Admiral Cheesecake View Post

                    Personally I really like the idea of flavoring the devotion based on whether the base is Dominate or Majesty and if I remember what my ST told me correctly I think if you successfully resist a summons you're free from it for at least the rest of that night. Making it possible for the vampire to try again later on.

                    Likewise. The fun is in the flavor, after all.

                    In different versions of VtM, summons could be negated with a Willpower, but there was nothing that prevented the vamp from using the (free cost) summons again the next round, and the next, etc. until you either ran out of Willpower or decided WTF save it for the inevitable confrontation. Later versions added immunity clauses but I remain unclear on how VtR 2e handles it. Of course, "ST call" is perfectly valid, though nobody (PC or NPC) should be using the power as an "I win" button or stand in for Scry and Die tactics.

                    --Khanwulf

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
                      As I understand--and correct me if I'm wrong, you can use a Willpower expenditure to represent the internal struggle a character undergoes to resist a summons. If that fails--perhaps after a scene or moment of anguished terror that something is impeding on their will--they decide to go, they may not even recognize the source of the need to go, go now! but their abnormal behavior will attract attention unless the character clearly understands such would impede their travel.

                      For example, clearing out the family's bank account when you have a poor idea of how to forge the signatures/whatever needed, and there's a good risk of police restraint, might push the character to pursue other means of quick cash. You're not rendered stupid: sleepwalking off cliffs like in some film or other, but you do need go, go directly, and drop whatever else you were doing that is immediately rendered irrelevant and trivial. (Even if it really isn't.)

                      (Note: if you wanted to flavor the Dominate and Majesty versions differently, you could totally make Dominate about sleepwalking through the process of going, and Majesty about a raw, consuming primal need to go.)

                      Since we're talking about this... if you expend a Willpower to resist a summons, and succeed, does that render the character immune to summons by that vampire for the remainder of the scene? The night? Or just... um, until the vamp realizes you're not coming (which could be next round if he's watching/aware)? --Be kind, I may be conflating rules for such things going all the way back to VtM....

                      --Khanwulf
                      There isn't any option to expend willpower to resist but on the contested roll as usual.

                      Furthermore, even if used to summon an enemy, I really don't see it as useless. I would not allow a PC/PNC to advise her allies she is going to the vampire. It'd sound very weird.
                      "Hey guys. You know my worst enemy? Well he want me to go and I'm going and I even know exactly where to go. Fancy come with me for a surprise party?"

                      No way!!!

                      In my opinion the mood is different: it's night, you are in your shelter reading an ancient book in which some dark secret is hidden. Then you suddenly rise your sight on an empty wall. He want you, your worst nemesis. He is through that wall and many further miles in that direction. He want you bring the book. You want, you must... no...you NEED to go to him. You don't know why but you even are not thinking about the consequences. You close the book, put it under your arm and without even change your clothes you are on your way.


                      No friends, no mum, no allies, not even the phone to be connected on facebook. You don't have time for anything but to reach him right now. And that's it.

                      Edit: I want to go a little bit further with this example (sorry my bad english):

                      Now you are there, with your book and that dark shadow, with no face or shape, at the end of the alley lurking at you. Now you are there but suddenly you start to think what the fu*k was wrong with you. Having came there, alone and with that book, has been simply so stupid. "You, fucked bastard, will pay for this."
                      The shadow simply rise his hand through you, slowly, in an apparently endless movement, with no sound. So far from you but still seems that his arm could reach you. You are on the point to speak with heavy and dirty words but, again that fucking magnetism. That sensation that nothing else matters but him. All your angry, all your hate disappears as a cloud of smoke. You know it's his power and not your free will. But what does it matter now?! What the junkie care to know that her fix is destroying her will? You just need to reach that arm, get the fix to your compulsion and hoping that hand could at least just brush yours.

                      (This is not the effect of summoning obviously, but a further application of some Majesty)
                      Last edited by Marcus; 03-30-2018, 02:28 PM.

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                      • #12
                        I don't see how it's valid for a character subjected to Summoning to do anything that they would be consciously aware of that would impeded their progress. They're not going to tell people they're being summoned and by whom unless they trust the other person to help them get there.

                        As described in the Devotion, it's an emotional manipulation. The target doesn't just go into a zombie like trance saying, "I have to get to Bob." to everyone they meet. They act like they want to get to the user, and will do so intelligently.

                        Also, in VtR 2e, there is no option to spend WP to resist Summoning beyond being able to spend WP on the contested roll. If the roll succeeds, it works. As well, the target always knows who used the power on them unless the user has some other power that would explicitly hide them somehow. The books examples are also clearing out your own bank accounts, or stealing from friends and family; not clearing out their bank accounts (unless your character is confident they could manage it without getting caught).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post


                          Likewise. The fun is in the flavor, after all.

                          In different versions of VtM, summons could be negated with a Willpower, but there was nothing that prevented the vamp from using the (free cost) summons again the next round, and the next, etc. until you either ran out of Willpower or decided WTF save it for the inevitable confrontation. Later versions added immunity clauses but I remain unclear on how VtR 2e handles it. Of course, "ST call" is perfectly valid, though nobody (PC or NPC) should be using the power as an "I win" button or stand in for Scry and Die tactics.

                          --Khanwulf
                          I decided to look up what it says in the 2e book. Alright the normal duration is for one night.

                          On a dramatic failure the victim knows the vampire wants them to come and can actively avoid the vampire because of it using the fact that they know where the vampire is to their advantage. A normal failure just means the victim isn't able to go to the vampire for some reason.

                          But the text for both the successes is interesting enough to relate more fully.

                          Success: The victim knows where the vampire is and has a sudden compulsion to travel to him. She will travel to meet him by the most direct means available to her, stopping only for necessities. The compulsion lasts for the rest of the night from the vampire’s perspective — if he’s calling someone from the other side of the world, the effects last until sunrise wherever he is.

                          Exceptional Success: The victim’s compulsion lasts throughout the day and for all of the next night as well, long enough for many international journeys — or at least for the victim to find a way to smuggle herself overseas.


                          From the way it's written in the book and the way I view it the Vampire would have to know that the summoning didn't work to try again. But it doesn't say if the Vampire knows if the summoning has failed or been resisted. Hmm. Then again I could be misreading this completely.
                          Last edited by Admiral Cheesecake; 03-30-2018, 11:33 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Admiral Cheesecake View Post

                            Personally I really like the idea of flavoring the devotion based on whether the base is Dominate or Majesty and if I remember what my ST told me correctly I think if you successfully resist a summons you're free from it for at least the rest of that night. Making it possible for the vampire to try again later on.
                            Nah I didn't say that. I said the effect lasts 1 night.

                            Since it doesn't say anything about not being able to use it multiple times per night, I'd argue that the vampire can use it as often as he wants. But of course it stands to reason that in-character, the vampire doesn't really know whether his summoning was successful or a failure until a reasonable amount of time has passed. A vampire summoning his minion from the other side of the country is probably not going to realize the summon failed until the end of the night. But a vampire who knows his minion is in the same building will probably realize his summon failed after a couple of minutes when the minion still hasn't shown up, and will be able to try again.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post

                              Nah I didn't say that. I said the effect lasts 1 night.

                              Since it doesn't say anything about not being able to use it multiple times per night, I'd argue that the vampire can use it as often as he wants. But of course it stands to reason that in-character, the vampire doesn't really know whether his summoning was successful or a failure until a reasonable amount of time has passed. A vampire summoning his minion from the other side of the country is probably not going to realize the summon failed until the end of the night. But a vampire who knows his minion is in the same building will probably realize his summon failed after a couple of minutes when the minion still hasn't shown up, and will be able to try again.
                              Ah fair enough. I wasn't entirely sure what the exact wording of it was.
                              Last edited by Admiral Cheesecake; 03-31-2018, 11:31 PM.

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