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  • #16
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    I don't see how it's valid for a character subjected to Summoning to do anything that they would be consciously aware of that would impeded their progress. They're not going to tell people they're being summoned and by whom unless they trust the other person to help them get there.

    As described in the Devotion, it's an emotional manipulation. The target doesn't just go into a zombie like trance saying, "I have to get to Bob." to everyone they meet. They act like they want to get to the user, and will do so intelligently.

    Also, in VtR 2e, there is no option to spend WP to resist Summoning beyond being able to spend WP on the contested roll. If the roll succeeds, it works. As well, the target always knows who used the power on them unless the user has some other power that would explicitly hide them somehow. The books examples are also clearing out your own bank accounts, or stealing from friends and family; not clearing out their bank accounts (unless your character is confident they could manage it without getting caught).

    Thanks folks. Let me quote here as it gives the most concise bit to respond to: I agree that there's a manipulation going on, that the key WP expenditure is in the struggle for whether or not the power takes effect (contested roll, with any WP used) and that if the summoning succeeds then the subject is going to get up and go, intelligently, quickly and purposefully with intent to clear obstacles in the most efficient and expeditious manner.

    The power text (thanks Admiral Cheesecake) says nothing regarding "and invite along a pack of my most dangerous friends"... but as ST I'd not permit the subject to arm said accompaniment with instructions that would hold them back from "going". He'll get gone, get there, and then let's see.

    It's kinda like... if you summoned the President, what shows up? Him, his hangers-on, the motorcade (or, helicopter), a secret service crew, and quite probably some annoyed and confused Marines--all of which are responding to his urgent and direct orders and/or dragged along in the wake by protocol. They will not be pleased by the circumstances of the unusual behavior... though depending on the President's temperament and cleverness, they might arrive having given everyone the slip--for a time.

    This is why summoning is best employed judiciously, if not rarely. I only really saw it used in one game, by the NPCs, who were elders and could get away with it because we (PCs) were minions/food anyway. (Tiny story time: one mortal PC, mine, accidentally woke a long-sleeping elder, who was... grateful... for the convenient snack, and unwilling to let it just leave when discretion kicked in.)

    --Khanwulf

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    • #17
      I agree with heavy arms here. People who are mesmerized or charmed don’t run around asking their friends to stop them because they are being controlled. It wouldn’t make any sense for summon to be like that. If they succeeded the roll, you go. If they failed, narratively, that’s when you asked your friend to stop you.

      I use summon all the time in the one game I am playing. I summoned a city prince once ... he showed up with an small army, because that’s what a prince would have. And no one would tell them no you can’t go, because they are the prince...

      I made a auspex devotion for a sort of reverse summon, drags the user to the subject instead of the other way around. It’s gotten me into some hot water, but it’s been fun.

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      • #18
        had thought on how subtle conditioning was too, if you condition one member of a hunter cell, can you get him to lead the other's to you till you have the whole cell as your fawning lackey's.


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        • #19
          Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
          had thought on how subtle conditioning was too, if you condition one member of a hunter cell, can you get him to lead the other's to you till you have the whole cell as your fawning lackey's.
          In theory yes. In practice though, if you're using the vinculum they may not become sniveling sycophants. They may become cutthroat competitors who will slit each other's throats for the Ventrue's approval or favored status without a second thought.

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          • #20
            meant the Conditioning power in the 2nd edition Requiem book.


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            • #21
              Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
              had thought on how subtle conditioning was too, if you condition one member of a hunter cell, can you get him to lead the other's to you till you have the whole cell as your fawning lackey's.

              Yes, definitely yes in my opinion.
              Enslaved Condition is not like Majesty where the minions are moved by sentiment and could try to destroy the rivals to obtain your attention just for them self. They are slave without an own will. You command them, they follow the command.
              Last edited by Marcus; 04-09-2018, 04:56 PM.

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              • #22
                one thing while they just have subservient is meeting regularly with a vampire a breaking point?


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                  one thing while they just have subservient is meeting regularly with a vampire a breaking point?

                  Why would meeting with someone on a weekly basis be a breaking point?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Vitalis View Post


                    Why would meeting with someone on a weekly basis be a breaking point?


                    If you know their a vampire?


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post



                      If you know they're a vampire?
                      Breaking points are suppose to be meaningful experiences that change who you are. Meeting with someone different than you on a regular basis is not something that is going to change you alone. Now if you were meeting with them every week and murdering someone... Or meeting with someone to rob banks, or meeting with someone to torture puppies.. But the "meeting" part is not the breaking point, it's what you do together.

                      Breaking points are something that is life altering and will be different for everyone. For example. Someone who lives in a sheltered small town stumbling upon a mutilated body will be more damaged by the sight than the cop who has been working murders for the last 20 years.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post



                        If you know their a vampire?
                        That's not remotely relevant. They're vampire killers so they're already aware that they exist. Furthermore, they aren't going to remember the encounter unless the vampire allows them to remember so a breaking point isn't going to come up unless the vampire orders him to commit a breaking point act. (If they're in the mass property destruction and vampire slaughter business, not many things will be breaking points)
                        If meta gaming is your concern then you should be worried about your players deciding to beat the conditioned member unconscious to break the Subservient condition instead of following him.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Marcus View Post

                          Enslaved Condition is not like Majesty where the minions are moved by sentiment and could try to destroy the rivals to obtain your attention just for them self. They are slave without an own will. You command them, they follow the command.
                          Enslaved and Subservient are different Conditions, if linked by degree to a great extent. The thing is, the Conditioning Devotion reads like its an exercise in repetition to achieve the effect, which is "an empty shell, waiting for his mistress’ next command."

                          That... sounds pretty noticeable, even if the actual Condition inflicted doesn't use terminology like that. Mesmerized is normally only slightly noticeable through maybe a subdued demeanor, but especially so when the subject is glassy-eyed doing something they otherwise wouldn't (when the command is forcing issues).

                          One thing to consider if your patsy is going to lead their friends "knowingly" into destruction is 1) whether he can pass his breaking point check and shake off the Condition long enough to fess up, or 2) whether his, uh, condition will become noticeable to his buds. If they're are, in fact, a hollowed-out shell sitting around waiting for order to kick in, that's much more likely to be noticed than "Bob who's taking us by a new route and says everything is fine until the warehouse door shuts and the minigun spins up. Then he says 'sorry, she must be obeyed' before the lights go bright the last time."

                          --Khanwulf

                          PS. As a storyteller I'd go with the least-detectable option, simply because it ramps up the paranoia more to realize that absolutely anyone might be under control and not show a sign until too late.

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                          • #28
                            think a Hunter's 'tactic's' Could notice or cure subservient or enslaved?

                            I's say yes... but that a dramatic failure makes you erroniously believe you succeeded.

                            Just found 'deprogram' I'd say, even though it isnt magical it has a chance of working, but is VERY VERY risky.
                            Last edited by Prince of the Night; 04-12-2018, 07:04 PM.


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