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How much blood is a point of Vitae?

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  • How much blood is a point of Vitae?

    In milliters please.

    Also where do vampires store them? In their belly? Does their body work as some kind of Vitae tank?

  • #2
    It's stored in their blood, or else you wouldn't be able to shed Vitae in the form of blood (containing DNA and other biological markers from all the victim's you've drank blood from). One Vitae is at most ca. 250 ml according to some old calculations done by my group (that I unfortunately can't back up). Above that and the vampire would have to contain more blood than is possible. Additionally, vampires of higher Blood Potency should in that case distil their Vitae into smaller amounts in order to be able to fit it inside their vascular system.


    Bloodline: The Stygians
    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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    • #3
      You could speak of how much Vitae is yielded from a particular volume of blood drained from a living human, but once it's consumed, Vitae resting within a Kindred system doesn't correspond to volumes of liquid. The body of an elder vampire with 75 Vitae isn't saturated with more fluid than a neonate storing 10, and a vampire exhausting a large amount of Vitae in a short amount of time doesn't physically become lighter or lose density. The blood sits fat and stagnant in a vampire's body, and it's plausible that a hungry vampire might be more sallow and less saturated than one well fed, but the blood isn't the Vitae, it's a vessel to carry it. Vitae isn't the blood. It's the life, an occult quality expressed in a physical medium.

      Where does the matter go and how is it conserved when an ancient monster drains an arena of victims dry to fill its gullet?

      "Decent people shouldn't think too much about that." Academician Prokhor Zakharov, For I Have Tasted the Fruit.

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      • #4
        Decent people? We're role-players!


        Bloodline: The Stygians
        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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        • #5
          Average adult has 5 liters of blood. Average character has 7 health levels, translating to 7 points of blood. 5/7 = 714 mL

          Pretty sure that a vampire can move the Vitae in his body at will, so it could be anywhere. Though I suppose it first ends up in the stomach.

          My head canon has the Vitae spread out roughly equally, thickening in the parts of the body that are used. Vitae is what animates the undead after all.
          Last edited by Howalt; 04-03-2018, 10:50 AM.

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          • #6
            Consider that people can survive getting 7 lethal's worth of blood removed (although most people will require medical attention). They cannot survive complete exsanguination, meaning the Vitae taken represents less than the full 5 litres of blood the average adult contains.


            Bloodline: The Stygians
            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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            • #7
              Adding to the problem of vamps of higher BP storing massive amounts of vitae:

              I’d say the vitae replaces matter (bones, marrow, dead flesh and mucus) that gets in the way. An elder is a litteral blood bag. As he spends vitae his bones hollow out, the marrow regrows in case structural integrity is compromised.

              Human body density is practically the same as water. So every kg corresponds to a volume of 1l. A 70k elder has more than enough space for 75 x .714 liters of vitae
              Last edited by Howalt; 04-03-2018, 11:07 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                Consider that people can survive getting 7 lethal's worth of blood removed (although most people will require medical attention). They cannot survive complete exsanguination, meaning the Vitae taken represents less than the full 5 litres of blood the average adult contains.
                Yeah, theoretically. So, average character with 7 health levels is exsanguinated after 7 points of blood drained. Right? Theoretically the victim can be saved from turning all lethal into aggrevated, but a blood transfusion is a minimum requirement.
                Last edited by Howalt; 04-03-2018, 11:06 AM.

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                • #9
                  Dr. Douglas Netchurch in the Time of Thin Blood book studies this very concept. Note that vitae -- that is, supernaturally transmuted blood -- varies widely per individual. Age and Generation play a large factor. Just because a Methuselah can store 50 points of vitae, that doesn't mean that they have five times the amount of physical blood inside them: it just means their body is more efficient at converting blood to vitae, and so there's more potency to be found in each liter of blood.

                  So after careful study of the relative potency of vitae, Netchurch and Tremere researcher Maxius developed what they called the "Vitae Efficiency Unit" -- basically they managed to identify the game mechanic of the Blood Point.

                  Edit: Missed that this was VTR and not VTM. Basic concept still holds, though: there's no hard-and-fast rule for quantity of vitae, AFAIK.
                  Last edited by IanWatson; 04-04-2018, 11:10 AM.


                  Ian A. A. Watson
                  Onyx Path Community Manager

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                  • #10
                    Vitae does not correlate to blood. Blood that isn't fresh provides less. Animal blood provides less. Different animals have different Vitae-to-Blood ratios, even. A human can be drained of all Vitae and still be alive. Elders store more vitae in the same space by making it more concentrated, not by physically holding more volume. Things with less concentrated Vitae-to-Blood ratios eventually become something of a drop in the bucket and difficult to extract the Vitae from. This is all in the book, with the possible exception of the storage thing. I can't remember where I read that, but it logically follows given that BP 10 vampires aren't all bloated balls of blood.

                    Some quotes:

                    Vitae is not blood; at least, not directly. Kindred create Vitae
                    as a byproduct of processing the blood they absorb.
                    Vitae is not blood. At least, not directly. Blood flows through
                    mortal veins; Vitae through Kindred. However, when Kindred
                    “spend” Vitae, their bodies do not lose the fluid that animates
                    them; it simply becomes inert. Picture Kindred blood as paint.
                    Blood is the oil, the water, the vessel. You can’t paint with oil
                    or water. The Vitae is the pigment. It brings color, it makes the
                    paint vibrant. It’s only a small part of the mixture. You could
                    remove the pigment and still have a pail of fluid, it just wouldn’t
                    be very useful on a canvas.
                    In short, vampires store their Vitae in their blood. There is no fixed ratio. The analogy I've used before is a flavor packet, like Kool-Aid. A typical human might fit a teaspoon of it in a glass of water. A neonate might be able to store a tablespoon in a glass. A BP 10 Ancient is basically the entire flavor packet with just enough water to make a sugary sludge. To get a couple grains of powder from a squirrel requires drinking the entire cup, and anyone who's been drinking the Kool-Aid for more than a few days isn't going to get anything out of it; it isn't sweet enough to notice anymore.

                    When you realize that "Vitae" literally means "Life," it becomes more clear why healthier humans have more of it, bigger animals have more of it, and why blood loses it quickly once it is removed from a living vessel. It's also why it's more of a flavor or "pigment" in the blood that has to be processed and filtered out of it than some actual physical component. It's impossible to give a ratio, because every living thing you encounter has different amounts of "life" energy in it, even if they have roughly the same amount of blood.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Howalt View Post

                      Yeah, theoretically. So, average character with 7 health levels is exsanguinated after 7 points of blood drained. Right? Theoretically the victim can be saved from turning all lethal into aggrevated, but a blood transfusion is a minimum requirement.

                      You are not exsanguinated after seven points of Vitae drained. You would be dead if that is the case, but instead you are dying and can be saved with first aid. You can run out of Vitae before you lose too much blood to survive, and usually will run out before death. In fact, given that you cause damage per Vitae drained, and there is no provision for continued damage after there is no more Vitae to take, it seems fairly clearly (if counter-intuitively) stated that it's the removal of Vitae that causes the damage, not the draining of blood, and (it seems, based on this information)that relatively little blood is actually taken.

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                      • #12
                        Gotta love the haughty tone that’s so prevalent on these forums

                        Originally posted by Maina View Post

                        When you realize that "Vitae" literally means "Life," .
                        I am familiar with dr. Pangloss and the dormitive principle.

                        Vitae -has- to be correlated to blood, even if it is only that blood serves as a substrate to vitae. Like you say yourself: that’s where a vampire stores it. In fact, as a human loses blood he loses vitae. And to imbibe vitae a vampire needs to drink blood. What is more, vitae expenditure requires blood be shed, this is most clear when it comes to such practices as ghouling and cruac.

                        That different species have different vitae to blood ratio’s doesn’t in the slightest mean that the ratio of vitae to blood in a particular species cannot be determined, if only by approximation.

                        I always assumed that vampires not being able to exsanguinate people per RAW was an artefact of the combination of vampire feeding rules and gmc damage rules for mortals. It seems counter topical for a vampire not being able to feed until the heart gives out. But sure, I suppose I should go by raw:

                        Class 4 hemorrhaging has a person go into hypovolemic shock after losing about 40% of their blood, i.e. 2 liters. This seems a good correlate for right most health box marked as lethal, there is still a (slight) chance of saving the victim.

                        2/7 = 285 mL of blood (which is probably how Tessie’s group arrived at their number) as an average volume of blood, carrying 1 point of vitae.

                        With this new volume it is entirely possible for even a vampire who suffers from dwarfism to hold 100 points of Vitae.

                        Considering the bulk of a human body consists of water, it is thematically appropriate to suppose that the bulk of a vampire’s consists of blood.
                        Last edited by Howalt; 04-03-2018, 07:39 PM.

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                        • #13
                          You might look into physics where blood is only our world's extension or anchor to it but the power itself extends elsewhere, only really applicable by the vampire hosts.

                          We know, for instance, that vampires are not blood bags. They're increasingly desiccated corpses. They don't seem to have blood unless it's manufactured via Blush of Life.

                          It would certainly be easy to just say a pint of blood is a health and a corresponding pint of Vitae but that falls apart after a bit. When you drain someone down to 1 Health, for instance, they would be running on a pint of blood, which doesn't seem like it would be accurately depicted by wound penalties and instead require immediate health care (which is generally needed after Aggravated damage takes place).

                          Plus we know Vitae isn't blood on its own, it's life taken from blood.
                          Last edited by nofather; 04-03-2018, 07:31 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by nofather View Post
                            We know, for instance, that vampires are not blood bags. They're increasingly desiccated corpses. They don't seem to have blood unless it's manufactured via Blush of Life.
                            I’d say the ‘fact’ of torpid vampires shrivveling up to parchment mummies only supports the idea that, yes, vampires are bloodbags in the same way that humans are waterbags. Once the vampire has been woken and fed, his healthy looking, undead features return. Or would you say that it requires the blush for an elder not to look desiccated? It might require the blush to infuse the stale blood in a vampire’s veins with a semblance of life, but when you expend vitae, for example to ghoul someone, that vitae is certainly carried in blood, even if that blood is the dead-tissue mixture of all your past victims, gooey and yuck.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Howalt View Post
                              I’d say the ‘fact’ of torpid vampires shrivveling up to parchment mummies only supports the idea that, yes, vampires are bloodbags in the same way that humans are waterbags. Once the vampire has been woken and fed, his healthy looking, undead features return. Or would you say that it requires the blush for an elder not to look desiccated? It might require the blush to infuse the stale blood in a vampire’s veins with a semblance of life, but when you expend vitae, for example to ghoul someone, that vitae is certainly carried in blood, even if that blood is the dead-tissue mixture of all your past victims, gooey and yuck.
                              They appear dead when they go into Daysleep, whether they have 1, 10 or 75 Vitae. And if you cut them, they do not bleed, unless Blush of Life is involved, though that 1 Vitae to 'wake up' at night seems to cover most of their animation, Humanity covers the rest, with low Humanity vampires looking increasingly dead or inhuman.

                              And you can expend 1 Vitae in the form of a single drop of Vitae. There's no blood involved except as the original source of it. You only have blood come out if you've activated Blush of Life to make you fit in with other living beings.

                              This is detailed in the About Vitae section. Also throughout first edition in things like the Blood book.
                              Last edited by nofather; 04-03-2018, 08:12 PM.

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