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Pledge to the Worthless One? Worthless?

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  • Pledge to the Worthless One? Worthless?

    Okay so yes I am playing a Lancea Sanctum character and I am considering Pledge to the Worthless One just to mix things up... But let me get this straight, I do this miracle and I am irrevocable pledged to Belial now, fine I get that and it works for me.

    But what about my humanity? So I do this and begin my decline in humanity and again, totally fine with that. But then as I proceed I LOSE my ability to use Theban Sorceries since you need a humanity rating equal to the ritual level in order to use. There is nothing in Pledge to the Worthless One that makes your Theban Sorceries work like Cruac which would make more sense.

    This really is a worthless ritual in that case. Great gain double vitae from sinners, gain the benefits of frenzy, and gain some servant - but now all that XP I put into Theban Sorceries is also worthless?

    How am I supposed to bring Belial's Brood into the chronicle if the miracle actually impedes my ability to use my major abilities?

  • #2
    I don't see anything in the Rite that prevents you from buying Humanity back up.

    Originally posted by mikerand View Post
    This really is a worthless ritual in that case.
    Even if you couldn't buy back humanity, this statement doesn't hold.

    It might be 'worthless' for your current character in your current game, but it's fantastic for my BP8 En Diablerist that only dipped into Theban just enough to get it in the first place.
    Last edited by lnodiv; 04-14-2018, 05:26 PM.

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    • #3
      The ritual has great gain, but I think SHOULD have great costs.

      And En was a very overpowered bloodline.


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      • #4
        I think mikerand assumes that someone who uses that ritual will fall in Humanity or they wouldn't literally pledge their soul to the Worthless One. And that's a pretty good point. You don't join the Belial's Brood if you wish to maintain your Humanity, even if there aren't any rules that prevents you from buying Humanity again.


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        • #5
          I agree there.

          In 1st edition you COULD but it constitute apostatsy from the brood.


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          • #6
            As I see it, it only prevents you from casting high level rituals. But as long as you're at 3 diots of theban you're fairly fine... even very monstrious characters can easily stick around at 2-3 humanity, which allows one to use most of the rituals anyways


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            • #7
              Griautis It's more of a hypothetical than for your chronicle. I am not taking that ritual.

              @Inodiv 3 dots is hardly a dip... But whatever... Also, dipping is for mini-maxing games, like when you take a level dip in a class to gain some ability.

              My point is if I am bringing Belial's Brood into a game, I would want low humanity with that Pledge. Why else would you do it?

              Yes, technically you could do Pledge to the Worthless One and have a 10 humanity. Thematically it doesn't fit at all. Plus, read the description - you are utterly betraying the Lancea Sanctum and doing something completely heretical. The LS is now honor-bound to hunting you down. You are forsaking God / Dark Prophet / whoever and now serving Belial - the pledge includes that after you reach final death that your soul is going to Belial. Yes, there is literally NOTHING else in 2E about Belial, but obviously this is a nudge to 1E Belial's Brood and there should be some relation to it. Hopefully there will be future products that flesh this out.

              I know you can house rule anything, but I think after doing Pledge to the Worthless One that for humanity purposes your Theban Sorcery works backwards like Cruac. And you probably should have an automatic one dot loss in humanity. But just my thoughts on it.

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              • #8
                So the complaint is less 'this is mechanically useless' and more 'by following what I believe are the intended thematics of this ability, I cut myself off from other major investments I've made on this character?'

                That's fair, sure.

                I'd argue that being hunted down by the Sanctum isn't actually any kind of indication of detachment, so not particularly relevant. And 'pledging your soul to Belial' and 'forsaking god' don't necessarily really mean anything either. There's not even solid word about what happens to souls after people die in ChroD anyway - or whether or not vampires actually still have them. Theban sorcery probably doesn't come from God to begin with.

                The loss of a Touchstone means that slipping in humanity is mechanically much, much more likely. But a character that makes this pledge and wants to continue to maintain high humanity for any reason (Theban sorcery or otherwise) certainly can. It's just going to be a very uphill battle that's going to take immense effort on their part. IMO, that makes the intended thematics a bit more clear and I don't see a problem with it at all.

                It makes it all that much harder to avoid the downward spiral that is Kindred existence.
                Harder, but not impossible.

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                • #9
                  One thing about the Pledge that I think tends to get overlooked is the fact that it’s the subject of the Ritual that gains the effects, and that subject doesn’t necessarily have to be the caster (though it certainly can be.) So, you could have a whole Sabat-style Pack of Brood, all Pledged to Belial, and only one ritemaster need maintain Humanity 3 or higher to be able to perform the rite for any new initiates.

                  If that’s still a problem, you could always bring back Glorious Reclamation. It was a Merit that appeared in the open dev blog previewing the Circle of the Crone Merits and Rituals for Secrets of the Covenants, and unfortunately didn’t make it into the final version (and even more unfortunately got scrubbed from the preview document for some reason). I don’t remember how much it cost, for some reason I think it was two dots, but at any rate, it was a Circle of the Crone Merit that allowed you to learn a single Theban Sorcery Ritual as a Cruac Ritual. That would allow Brood ritemasters to learn the Pledge to the Worthless One without having to maintain Humanity. I actually distinctly remember wanting to use the Merit for exactly this purpose, which is why I was disappointed when Rose said she was cutting it. I wish she hadn’t removed it from the document so I could review the specifics of how it worked.
                  Last edited by Charlaquin; 04-15-2018, 02:30 AM.


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                  • #10
                    Charlaquin - I guess my idea was a corrupt LS priest that falls from grace and possibly has a lot invested into Theban Sorceries, but takes Pledge to the Worthless One and starts a secret cult within the LS subverting its members while still using dark miracles and outwardly seems to be a LS in good standing. I guess it kinda works, but as Griautis pointed out, probably have to give up at least 4 & 5 level Theban Sorceries.



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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mikerand View Post
                      Charlaquin - I guess my idea was a corrupt LS priest that falls from grace and possibly has a lot invested into Theban Sorceries, but takes Pledge to the Worthless One and starts a secret cult within the LS subverting its members while still using dark miracles and outwardly seems to be a LS in good standing. I guess it kinda works, but as Griautis pointed out, probably have to give up at least 4 & 5 level Theban Sorceries.
                      I would think that someone impersonating a devout Sanctified minister would need to maintain relatively high humanity anyway to keep up the charade. Remember, low Humanity has an impact on a vampire’s appearance, so if your local Bishop looks like a desiccated corpse, you’ll likely have an inkling something is not quite right about them.


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                      • #12
                        Not really. Mechanically taking a bane can make you look more monstrous than your Humanity rating indicates. Reversely, if you commit a depraved act when you have a high Humanity rating, (like committing a mass murder or torturing someone to death with a Humanity 7 rating) and baning it out immediately, you could have someone routinely committing some debased acts and not lose Humanity over it, so your appearance is unaffected.
                        “I accidentally kill someone when overfeeding? Let me grab six more and create a few vitae reliquaries and finish out the week with a special midnight mass ceremony.”
                        Last edited by tsusasi; 04-15-2018, 07:24 PM.

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