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  • #16
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    Vicissitude could even be a whole Mystery (the Mystery of Metamorphosis) if someone wishes to spend the effort. The Coil would amplify the base powers of healing and the Cleansing into tools of transformation, and Scales would include ways to inflict some of these effects onto others.

    See I thought about that but I wanted to focus on if there was a way to do it within the existing structre of the game, and not have to create a whole transhunamist coil for it.

    What would you propose for the levels in the coils? I can see Malleable Flesh as being a third level one for what it does. I'm just wondering about the others.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Sidious View Post
      See I thought about that but I wanted to focus on if there was a way to do it within the existing structre of the game, and not have to create a whole transhunamist coil for it.
      If you do it as a Scale you'd have to condense a whole Discipline (15-20 XP) into that Scale (2 XP). You'd either end up with a pale imitation of Vicissitude, or the most overpowered Scale ever. Even if you do it as several Scales it's still cheap XP-wise and no inherent progression to stop someone from only taking the most powerful Scale.

      Originally posted by Sidious View Post
      What would you propose for the levels in the coils? I can see Malleable Flesh as being a third level one for what it does. I'm just wondering about the others.
      I would base this theoretical Mystery on the Path of Metamorphosis, the ideology that drives the use of Vicissitude beyond purely practical applications. As such the Coil would be functionally different from Vicissitude in VtM, especially in that it would require Scales to affect other people.
      The first dot would be to heavily rework (maybe invert or possibly even remove) the Cleansing, as that is a huge symbol for a vampire's inability to change. Physical changes being permanent would be the default and not cost any Willpower.
      Another dot (maybe second or third) would be to amplify the dragon's drive to change to the point where it acts like an Anchor. It would be a source of Willpower and probably grant a bonus die on detachment checks taken in pursuit of personal transformation.
      One dot would functionally be like Malleable Visage by extending the vampire's ability to heal. Healing already reconstructs the body by "mending bones and knitting torn flesh" so why not allow the vampire to guide such changes by themselves? Hell, it might even grant Merits like Ambidextrous, Double Jointed, Giant, Small-Framed, and Striking Looks. I'd limit the number of Merit dots to either the vampire's dots in the Coil, or half the vampire's dots in the Coil rounded up. Shifting around your physical Attribute dots like Biokinesis or Force of Nature might also be possible, or it might be a higher ranking dot. If it's a higher dot it might not be limited by Coil dots (though still not able to exceed your normal trait maximum, and can't be lowered lower than one, unmodified by Vigor/Resilience). In either case there would be a warning that Merits you longer meet the prerequisites for are suppressed until you meet them again.
      Scales would be required to apply similar effects to other people, though probably more costly, slower (meaning they can't be applied in combat), and requiring successful Dex+Medicine rolls to gain any mechanical effects.

      All in all I think such a Coil would embody the psychology of Tzimisce much more than what just converting Vicissitude could do. It also gives them a place in the VtR setting that they wouldn't get if they were just a Bloodline, imo.
      The only downside is the lack of Zulo/Bloodform, but those temporary transformations for utilitarian purposes are already represented by Protean. Zulo would be an awesome Devotion based on Protean 4 and a bunch of Vigor/Resilience, similar to Force of Will, while Bloodform is basically just Protean 5 in another medium, so just a 2-3 XP Devotion. If I were to do a proper writeup I'd try to include those two Devotions with a footnote that says that many dragons seeking the Mystery of Metamorphosis are often also captivated with the transformative properties of Protean, and often learn (or independently develop versions of) the following Devotions.

      Even if it's not what you wanted for your own character, I hope it can be used as inspiration. I'm tempted to do a proper writeup if I just figure out enough Coil dots.


      Bloodline: The Stygians
      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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      • #18
        First of all, the idea of applying Vicissitude as a Coil is really elegant. I like it alot. Then--if you wanted to use it as the focus of a Tzimisce Bloodline you could simply make their special power "may purchase the first dot of the Coil of Vicissitude regardless of teacher or Covenant membership." Obviously then a Bloodline with such that existed before the Ordo would be the origination for the Coil. Simple. Tidy.

        Originally posted by Tessie View Post

        If you do it as a Scale you'd have to condense a whole Discipline (15-20 XP) into that Scale (2 XP). You'd either end up with a pale imitation of Vicissitude, or the most overpowered Scale ever. Even if you do it as several Scales it's still cheap XP-wise and no inherent progression to stop someone from only taking the most powerful Scale.
        You could do one Scale, but limit the ability of its effects to the range of changes the vampire can make with the Coil. For example if the Coil dots only permit molding flesh in themselves, then the Scale could only go that far in a victim/subject. If they can warp their own bones, then they can use the Scale to do in others. If they can graft on new mass and appendages to themselves, then they can do so in others.

        You could still separate some effects, such as speeding healing processes instead of making crude alterations, or moving attribute dots around versus simply taking them away, to other focused Scales.

        But virtually every Coil of Vicissitude holder would want the basic "can change others" Scale. Except maybe very inwardly focused vamps. Which is fine, come to think of it.

        Originally posted by Tessie View Post
        I would base this theoretical Mystery on the Path of Metamorphosis, the ideology that drives the use of Vicissitude beyond purely practical applications. As such the Coil would be functionally different from Vicissitude in VtM, especially in that it would require Scales to affect other people.
        Right. Protean is about shapeshifting. Vicissitude is about shapechanging. The distinction is subtle but real and deep enough to provoke endless hours of salon arguments--especially after the Gangrel leave the room.

        I don't think there's anything to hold onto when it comes to the progression and specific dot-power levels of VtM as things transfer to VtR. I mean in VtM there are Protean 8 powers that are literally VtR's Protean 4....

        Vicissitude in both settings should do the same thing: enable you to mystically change a physical form (yours or others) by molding it into something else that works despite biology and the Curse. What is done with that power defines whether the character is the world's best doctor or a monster who could casually indulge their curiosity on what a human centipede is like.

        Originally posted by Tessie View Post
        The first dot would be to heavily rework (maybe invert or possibly even remove) the Cleansing, as that is a huge symbol for a vampire's inability to change. Physical changes being permanent would be the default and not cost any Willpower.

        Another dot (maybe second or third) would be to amplify the dragon's drive to change to the point where it acts like an Anchor. It would be a source of Willpower and probably grant a bonus die on detachment checks taken in pursuit of personal transformation.

        One dot would functionally be like Malleable Visage by extending the vampire's ability to heal. Healing already reconstructs the body by "mending bones and knitting torn flesh" so why not allow the vampire to guide such changes by themselves? Hell, it might even grant Merits like Ambidextrous, Double Jointed, Giant, Small-Framed, and Striking Looks. I'd limit the number of Merit dots to either the vampire's dots in the Coil, or half the vampire's dots in the Coil rounded up. Shifting around your physical Attribute dots like Biokinesis or Force of Nature might also be possible, or it might be a higher ranking dot. If it's a higher dot it might not be limited by Coil dots (though still not able to exceed your normal trait maximum, and can't be lowered lower than one, unmodified by Vigor/Resilience). In either case there would be a warning that Merits you longer meet the prerequisites for are suppressed until you meet them again.

        Scales would be required to apply similar effects to other people, though probably more costly, slower (meaning they can't be applied in combat), and requiring successful Dex+Medicine rolls to gain any mechanical effects.
        So basically we have here a dot 1-3 structure for the Coil. Though you could separate out some of the third-paragraph/dot effects into levels 4 and 5. I think it's reasonable to limit the actual body molding stuff to Coil 3+, while the earlier dots represent changes to the vampire physically, supernaturally and psychologically to support their "work" later on.

        You could even, thematically, make the entire Coil around injury and healing. So "molding" yourself and others involves pressing the flesh and bone and nerves until they break--and then heal into the new configuration. They can guide this themselves with effort, and do so in others via the Scale and their Vitae (to carry a bit of the Curse and Sympathy). Mechanically the process for modifying oneself could be very painful, time-consuming and inflict lethal damage (and Tilts/Conditions).

        Merit dot changes: limited to the vamp's dots in the Coil+Physical Merit dots. So if they want to shift their Physical Merits around like a pool, they could (Sanctity of Merits and all that), but adding new ones they haven't paid Experience for should be limited. And... perhaps the Merit benefits fade overnight unless a Willpower is spent, nightly? A Vitae?

        A four-dot Coil power could permit shifting attribute dots around and even adding dots temporarily (up to Coil dots) along with "extra" flesh borrowed from someone else. Anything added "for free!" should fade in the same manner as Merit dots.

        Thematically I'm picturing all these changes as being deliberate and time-consuming. In other words, the vamp puts work in ahead of time to get their desired result, which takes effect during the day's sleep. They rise the next night with their results, ready for action.

        A fifth Coil dot could upend this, enabling the vamp to go through a kind of trance-like Cleansing at will, for one turn--which would make the Coil functionally usable in combat even if it doesn't affect others.

        As another Scale, the vamp could prep modifications and switch between them, forcing his body to respond as if it was broken and healing again. This would be handy to simplify the work of swapping things around, normally, but with the fifth-dot idea above it would enable the vamp to swap in a pre-created Zulo form (for example)--their body bubbling and bursting out impossibly with the stolen flesh and bones grafted in and given horrible life.

        Originally posted by Tessie View Post
        All in all I think such a Coil would embody the psychology of Tzimisce much more than what just converting Vicissitude could do. It also gives them a place in the VtR setting that they wouldn't get if they were just a Bloodline, imo.

        The only downside is the lack of Zulo/Bloodform, but those temporary transformations for utilitarian purposes are already represented by Protean. Zulo would be an awesome Devotion based on Protean 4 and a bunch of Vigor/Resilience, similar to Force of Will, while Bloodform is basically just Protean 5 in another medium, so just a 2-3 XP Devotion. If I were to do a proper writeup I'd try to include those two Devotions with a footnote that says that many dragons seeking the Mystery of Metamorphosis are often also captivated with the transformative properties of Protean, and often learn (or independently develop versions of) the following Devotions.

        Even if it's not what you wanted for your own character, I hope it can be used as inspiration. I'm tempted to do a proper writeup if I just figure out enough Coil dots.
        Do a proper writeup--and I'd be happy to help.

        Also agreed on the Devotion notes. Plus, "combat Vicissitude" in VtM really wasn't supposed to be a thing. You were never intended to, oh, bitchslap your foe's eyeballs off. You could grab them and twist, but that's possible anyway in VtR, through inflicting Tilts after focused targeting rolls and ramping up strength with Vitae. And if you want to reduce your opponent to a pile of goo? Use a Scale that inflicts your blood on them, and triggers an effect later.

        Vicissitude is about thinking ahead.

        --Khanwulf

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        • #19
          I agree we can all loose "Combat Vicissitude" it has caused nothing but problems and arguments for a long time.
          Zulu Form, Chiropteran Marauder should be left out. You can get both these from use of Protean now.

          What about a Craft Szlachta as a scale? One that takes time to do.
          Along with Craft Vozhd being the ultimate expression or a scale unto itself?

          I can see fleshcrafting being a part of the coil with fleshcrafting others a scale? Would that be too much?
          Also what about an "Assume the Familiar shape" scale that allows you to change your own appearance to something you've designed quickly?
          Last edited by Sidious; 05-18-2018, 03:17 PM.

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          • #20
            So i threw something together and would love some input on it.

            Mystery of Metamorphosis:
            First Tier: The Fluid Mind
            In order to physically evolve the vampire must first make his mind and soul ready. At this initial level, the character may shrug off some of the more heinous effects of her degeneration. Add her Coil dots to her Humanity for the purpose of determining the effects of her Banes. This does not include her clan Bane. If this increases her effective Humanity to 10, such Banes do not affect her. This does not, however, affect the vampire’s weaknesses to fire or sunlight.

            Second Tier: Mortal Flesh
            The vampire has learned to overcome effects of the cleansing. Changes made to their body will remain after the Daysleep, unless it was a wound. Wounds heal as they normally would.

            Third Tier: Malleable Flesh
            With only a thought, the vampire can alter her human form. She can change her face, hair, skin, voice, weight, musculature, apparent gender, and even her height, plus or minus a foot. These changes don’t have to be particularly human; the vampire can give herself bizarre flourishes (extra eyes, elongated limbs, spare fingers) though these are vestigial, and offer no benefit beyond aesthetic. This ability costs 2 vitae, and another two to return to her true form.

            Impersonating another person requires a point of Willpower and a Resolve + Expression roll. Dramatic failure means the vampire has overlooked a fatal flaw in her disguise. Exceptional success grants her a +3 modifier on any rolls involving impersonation for the rest of the night. She can also bestow herself with either level of Striking Looks, but this also costs a Willpower and a Resolve + Expression roll. Merit dots are not subject to Sanctity of Merits.

            Fourth Tier: Flesh Crafting
            The vampire may move physical attribute points around by sculpting their bodies. Shifting attributes takes one hour.

            Fifth Tier: Bone Crafting
            The vampire can sculpt bone as well as flesh. They can craft bone weapons from their own bodies. These weapons tend to do +1L damage.


            Scales:

            Mortal Clay
            Pre-requisite: Mystery of Metamorphosis: 3
            The vampire feeds a point of Vitae to her victim; the rest are spent into the vampire’s own hands to create a sympathetic link between her own flesh and her victim’s. She can now use Malleable Visage and Predatory Aspect on others, to a limit of three modifications of the latter.
            For Kindred, Malleable Visage can be healed with Willpower during the Cleansing.

            For humans, all mutations are permanent until the vampire feeds her victim another Vitae. The vampire can also use this power to cripple a subject, imposing a –1 modifier on all physical actions per Vitae spent, up to a limit of her dots in the coil. This might impose appropriate Conditions and Tilts (Blind or Disabled, for example).

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