New homebrewed devotions - feedback appreciated

[Daigotsu Max]

Hi all - I quite like "The Wish" devotion in the core book as an iconic power for the Daeva, so I tried to come up with similarly powerful Devotions for the 4 other Clans. Here they are below, please let me know if you have any feedback or suggestions

The Shadow (Auspex 4, Celerity 2, Obfuscate 2):
Cost: 5 Vitae
Using a combination of speed and anticipation through telepathy, the vampire becomes able to hide behind the target at all times, and follow them anywhere. The target cannot detect the vampire without a clash of wills, while others attempts at locating him are penalized by his Obfuscate and Celerity dots. Once during the devotion, the vampire can feed on the victim without a roll, and the victim will not notice, but will receive the Shaken condition. This devotion lasts for a night. This devotion costs 5 experiences to learn.

The Pack (Animalism 2, Protean 4, Resilience 2)
Cost: 5 Vitae
The body of the vampire using this devotion rips apart in several pieces, each one taking the shape of one of Beast’s Skin’s forms. The vampire can turn into one additional animal per dot of Resilience. The transformation is imperfect however, and each animal looks unnatural – long fangs, red eyes, and rotten organs are common signs hinting at their otherworldly nature. The beasts act in perfect unison, and each one is fully controlled by the vampire. Upon resuming his normal form, the vampire only retains the wounds suffered by the least wounded animal. This devotion lasts for a night. This devotion costs 5 experiences to learn.

The Haunting (Nightmare 4, Obfuscate 2, Vigor 2)
Cost: 5 Vitae
The vampire imposes his will on the target, leading them to perceive a ghost-like echo of the vampire everywhere they go. The vampire only needs to see the target and utter a few words, and for five days thereafter, the victim is followed by an apparition which looks like the vampire and no one else can see. The Storyteller plays the role of the apparition, which torments the target by constantly terrifying them through appearing and disappearing at will and playing small tricks on them. For everyday that the curse lasts, the victim temporarily loses a point in all mental and social merits, as it slowly alienates itself from the world around them. Those points are recovered at a once per day rate once the devotion is over. The vampire can lift the curse at any time, which counts as hard leverage in a social interaction. This devotion costs 5 experiences to learn.

The Vassal (Animalism 2, Dominate 4, Resilience 2)
Cost: 5 Vitae
This perfidious Devotion requires the human target to consume at least one Vitae, included in the cost of this Devotion. If the victim dies at any point in the next twenty-four hours, they rise again as a pale imitation of the Embrace. The victim retains the same Traits they had when they were alive, and recovers their full health track. In addition, and follow the vampire’s bidding without question, and the vampire can communicate silently with it regardless of distance. Their appearance remains the same as the one they had at the time of death however, and continually degrades over time. The victim suffers one point of lethal damage every week, and cannot heal through any means. However, it gains 2/2 armor, does not need food, drink, or rest, and any attempt to control it through supernatural means requires a Clash of Will. This devotion costs 5 experiences to learn.

[zenvious]

All vampires have access to Vigor, not just Nos. All vampires can get Resil, Celerity, and Vigor. I said to add them for a more powerful effect because it is either in the book or on these forums that if you want to make a power stronger, you mix it with vigor to create your devotion. Vigor isn't physical force exactly; what it does is amp up things to make them stronger. It makes a vampire physically stronger, but it's more than brute bicep strength. That's why it's used in several devotions that just strengthen another power.

I think the goal of the project is still hit. It's still using at least one clan and at least one non clan power and it's Something that is created specifically for a clan. (as OP was comparing it to the Wish, that has 1 and 1. )

Didn't want to go off the rails, but I still feel the "use Vigor" argument is not (ironically) strong for what you are suggesting for a few reasons.

I am aware they all have access to it, but some Clans find it easier to do (aka - cheaper to learn). Saying all Vampires have access is a little limiting. If they ALL have access, why list Daeva and Mekhet as having Celerity? Why not just Auspex and Majesty?

The Wish is 2 Celerity, 2 Vigor, 4 Majesty (aka 2 dots in the non-Clan-specific Discipline, and 4 dots for the Clan-Specific Discipline). So not sure where your 1 and 1 is comming from; but makes sense then why the suggestive devotions of the OP are based on a 2-2-4 Discipline spread. Thats what I've been assuming was the baseline for the devotions that followed.

I did also check and, of the Devotions that use Vigor for "non-strength effects", there are only 3 (Chain of Command, Cult of Personality, Shatter the Shroud). I don't think that's a strong precedent to justify "use Vigor to have more power in your effect". But its likely matter of opinion. TBH I think the OP was looking more for the aforementioned 2-2-4 spread foremost, choosing Disciplines first to see what Devotion would occur from them, opposed to what offering Devotion ideas and asking for the right Disciplines to match the effect.

Alternatively, it could be a matter of perspective. We can leave it at an agree to disagree. I'm only offering my help for what I thought the OP was looking for.

[Vitalis]

Fair point. However I think part of this idea was to base Devotions on the 3 CLAN abilities of a vampire. While I agree Vigor gives a sense of power, its more physical force - not necessarily more powerful "effect".

What I noticed from these is that, like "The Wish", each Devotion is:
- Clan Specific Discipline Dots 4
- Non-Clan Disciplines Dots 2

So Vigor is all good for the Nosferatu (since they have it), but doesn't fit the mold for the other 3 who don't have Vigour. Not saying you're wrong in suggesting Vigour - just that I don't think thats the goal of the project. Its more "Square Peg - Round Hole - make the piece fit - see what comes out" which I like

All vampires have access to Vigor, not just Nos. All vampires can get Resil, Celerity, and Vigor. I said to add them for a more powerful effect because it is either in the book or on these forums that if you want to make a power stronger, you mix it with vigor to create your devotion. Vigor isn't physical force exactly; what it does is amp up things to make them stronger. It makes a vampire physically stronger, but it's more than brute bicep strength. That's why it's used in several devotions that just strengthen another power.

I think the goal of the project is still hit. It's still using at least one clan and at least one non clan power and it's Something that is created specifically for a clan. (as OP was comparing it to the Wish, that has 1 and 1. )

[zenvious]

I agree with zenvious that this seems too Obfuscate. I feel like obfuscate can already do something quite similar to this already. if you just want to make obfuscate "stronger" by making it last longer and being able to be close to that one person I feel like it should be Obfuscate 3 and Vigor 1. I don't think you need Auspex at all, but if you want to be able to mimic their movements exactly, add some celerity or auspex into it.

Any discipline you want to amplify in power add vigor, because vigor makes you stronger and thus if you add vigor to a discipline it makes them stronger. (at least it says that somewhere... which i cant verify because I dont have my book! ~Flails~ )

Again I think that it should require Vigor instead of resilience because you are amping up Animalism's strength to raise a human instead of an animal and Strengthening Dominate to control over a distance.

Fair point. However I think part of this idea was to base Devotions on the 3 CLAN abilities of a vampire. While I agree Vigor gives a sense of power, its more physical force - not necessarily more powerful "effect".

What I noticed from these is that, like "The Wish", each Devotion is:
- Clan Specific Discipline Dots 4
- Non-Clan Disciplines Dots 2

So Vigor is all good for the Nosferatu (since they have it), but doesn't fit the mold for the other 3 who don't have Vigour. Not saying you're wrong in suggesting Vigour - just that I don't think thats the goal of the project. Its more "Square Peg - Round Hole - make the piece fit - see what comes out" which I like

I feel like the best fit for those MEKHET Powers might be some kind of rapid mental projection, shadow form, or time-stopped investigate-the-scene effect.

I really like the idea of a time-stopped investigation effect actually! It fits all 3 effects:
- Auspex (Prime) as its PRIMARILY a sensory effect
- Celerity cause you do it VERY fast
- Obfuscate cause no one notices it

I was going to suggest (prior reading comments) something along the line of "group mind reading"; rapidly reading the thoughts of everyone present (or a number of them at least) as a form of accelerated "Beast Heckles", "Spirits Touch" or "Uncanny Perception" - maybe allowing you to ask up to "Celerity" number of Questions per use. Clash of Wills being used ONLY to notice the Devotion being used VS the Mekhet's obfuscate effect.

It could even be a Reflexive Effect so you can use it as PART of an action (given its speed from Celerity).

Could be named "The Witness", "The Scholar", "The Investigation", "The Observer", etc... Personally I prefer "The Voyer" because of its intrusive element.

[Daigotsu Max]

The thing i'm thinking for the mekhet devotion (if i may) is The Secret.
With one look the targets life (or unlife) flashes before your eyes in a single turn with all thoughts and secrets available as if you lived the targets life and had the eidetic memory merit.
So Auspex for the mind reading, Obfuscate for the finding the secrets/hidden thoughts and Celerity because it flashes in a single turn (tho you are defenseless in that turn).
Maybe add a drawback that for every 50 years of life (or again unlife) that you ''scan'' you suffer 1 bashing.

That's a great idea! And perfectly in theme. Thank you!

And thank you all for commenting! Funny thing - I've never seen Hellsing, just kinda stumbled upon the idea!

[Vent0]

Thanks a mil one concept I've been thinking about is for the Mekhet to "hide in thoughts", becoming a permanent telepathic presence in someone's mind. But I'd like to work Celerity into the mix because I wanted those to be a mix of all three disciplines. Mmmmh.

I feel like the best fit for those Powers might be some kind of rapid mental projection, shadow form, or time-stopped investigate-the-scene effect.

[Vitalis]

First, I could be wrong, but I am almost positive the cost for the devotion is all the dots added up and divided by 2. so if it takes 6 dots of disciplines, the devotion would cost 3 exp. I dont have a book handy to double check.

Book page 142: A new Devotion usually costs one Experience per dot in the Devotion, halved and rounded down.

So all your devotions cost much less.

The Shadow (Auspex 4, Celerity 2, Obfuscate 2):
Cost: 5 Vitae
Using a combination of speed and anticipation through telepathy, the vampire becomes able to hide behind the target at all times, and follow them anywhere. The target cannot detect the vampire without a clash of wills, while others attempts at locating him are penalized by his Obfuscate and Celerity dots. Once during the devotion, the vampire can feed on the victim without a roll, and the victim will not notice, but will receive the Shaken condition. This devotion lasts for a night. This devotion costs 5 experiences to learn.

I agree with zenvious that this seems too Obfuscate. I feel like obfuscate can already do something quite similar to this already. if you just want to make obfuscate "stronger" by making it last longer and being able to be close to that one person I feel like it should be Obfuscate 3 and Vigor 1. I don't think you need Auspex at all, but if you want to be able to mimic their movements exactly, add some celerity or auspex into it.

Any discipline you want to amplify in power add vigor, because vigor makes you stronger and thus if you add vigor to a discipline it makes them stronger. (at least it says that somewhere... which i cant verify because I dont have my book! ~Flails~ )

The Pack (Animalism 2, Protean 4, Resilience 2)
Cost: 5 Vitae
The body of the vampire using this devotion rips apart in several pieces, each one taking the shape of one of Beast’s Skin’s forms. The vampire can turn into one additional animal per dot of Resilience. The transformation is imperfect however, and each animal looks unnatural – long fangs, red eyes, and rotten organs are common signs hinting at their otherworldly nature. The beasts act in perfect unison, and each one is fully controlled by the vampire. Upon resuming his normal form, the vampire only retains the wounds suffered by the least wounded animal. This devotion lasts for a night. This devotion costs 5 experiences to learn.

I absolutely love Helsing! I am glad you wrote this one. I love the concept, but I do have some of the same questions as zenvious again. ( and maybe some answers for the questions )

Perhaps for your health box and powers you should treat your animals as though they are a swarm. If you are treated as a swarm, you still can only do one power at a time because you aren't really those multiple animals, you're more like a hive mind beast. You'd have one health pool, but it all takes less damage because it's being divided up.

I don't think Animalism is required for this because the animals are still you not real animals. Protean Reslience and Vigor (again because you are just amping up protean )
( I wrote something Similar from Dracula Untold for that Giant swarm of bats he can burst into )

The Haunting (Nightmare 4, Obfuscate 2, Vigor 2)
Cost: 5 Vitae
The vampire imposes his will on the target, leading them to perceive a ghost-like echo of the vampire everywhere they go. The vampire only needs to see the target and utter a few words, and for five days thereafter, the victim is followed by an apparition which looks like the vampire and no one else can see. The Storyteller plays the role of the apparition, which torments the target by constantly terrifying them through appearing and disappearing at will and playing small tricks on them. For everyday that the curse lasts, the victim temporarily loses a point in all mental and social merits, as it slowly alienates itself from the world around them. Those points are recovered at a once per day rate once the devotion is over. The vampire can lift the curse at any time, which counts as hard leverage in a social interaction. This devotion costs 5 experiences to learn.

I think this should be a contested roll to fight the vampire's will and last 1 day per success and on an exceptional, 1 week per. ( that would be so nasty! )

Nightmare + manipulation + intimidation ( Maybe. My heart isn't set on that... ) Vs Composure + BP

The Vassal (Animalism 2, Dominate 4, Resilience 2)
Cost: 5 Vitae
This perfidious Devotion requires the human target to consume at least one Vitae, included in the cost of this Devotion. If the victim dies at any point in the next twenty-four hours, they rise again as a pale imitation of the Embrace. The victim retains the same Traits they had when they were alive, and recovers their full health track. In addition, and follow the vampire’s bidding without question, and the vampire can communicate silently with it regardless of distance. Their appearance remains the same as the one they had at the time of death however, and continually degrades over time. The victim suffers one point of lethal damage every week, and cannot heal through any means. However, it gains 2/2 armor, does not need food, drink, or rest, and any attempt to control it through supernatural means requires a Clash of Will. This devotion costs 5 experiences to learn.

Again I think that it should require Vigor instead of resilience because you are amping up Animalism's strength to raise a human instead of an animal and Strengthening Dominate to control over a distance.

A merit for the devotion... Allow them to do it to another supernatural, such as vampires.

Reslience is more of a resistance trait to allow you to take more before you fall. Vigor is actual strength ( mental or power strength in some of these cases )

[Maitrecorbo]

The thing i'm thinking for the mekhet devotion (if i may) is The Secret.
With one look the targets life (or unlife) flashes before your eyes in a single turn with all thoughts and secrets available as if you lived the targets life and had the eidetic memory merit.
So Auspex for the mind reading, Obfuscate for the finding the secrets/hidden thoughts and Celerity because it flashes in a single turn (tho you are defenseless in that turn).
Maybe add a drawback that for every 50 years of life (or again unlife) that you ''scan'' you suffer 1 bashing.

[Daigotsu Max]

Thanks a mil one concept I've been thinking about is for the Mekhet to "hide in thoughts", becoming a permanent telepathic presence in someone's mind. But I'd like to work Celerity into the mix because I wanted those to be a mix of all three disciplines. Mmmmh.

[zenvious]

Thanks Zenvious ^_^ I'll take some time to review your comments and maybe do some adjustements.

Happy to help! All of them are great concepts. And I very much liked the Gangrel "The Pack". I was tempted to come up with a version of that inspired by that idea alone!

[Daigotsu Max]

Thanks Zenvious ^_^ I'll take some time to review your comments and maybe do some adjustements.

[zenvious]

Some really good ideas! I like these "pinacle clan moves" as an idea alone, and their applications seem quite functional.

The Shadow (Auspex 4, Celerity 2, Obfuscate 2):
Cost: 5 Vitae
Using a combination of speed and anticipation through telepathy, the vampire becomes able to hide behind the target at all times, and follow them anywhere. The target cannot detect the vampire without a clash of wills, while others attempts at locating him are penalized by his Obfuscate and Celerity dots. Once during the devotion, the vampire can feed on the victim without a roll, and the victim will not notice, but will receive the Shaken condition. This devotion lasts for a night. This devotion costs 5 experiences to learn.

Of what you've presented, I dislike this one (sorry!). Its effects feel like "Cloak of Shadows" (Obfuscate 3) with a higher Vitae cost, and with only a slight upgrade (aka targets cannot use indirect clues to detect you).

Its also an Auspex-based Discipline (Auspex 4) and not an Obfuscate Discipline - despite it basically being a stealth technique more than a sensory technique. I feel this MAY have been a placeholder Discipline to give each Clan a Peak power.

As it stands, the idea HAS merit as a Discipline, but the question is - what significant advantage does this trick provide that is worth learning 8 Discipline dots to pull off?

The Pack (Animalism 2, Protean 4, Resilience 2)
Cost: 5 Vitae
The body of the vampire using this devotion rips apart in several pieces, each one taking the shape of one of Beast’s Skin’s forms. The vampire can turn into one additional animal per dot of Resilience. The transformation is imperfect however, and each animal looks unnatural – long fangs, red eyes, and rotten organs are common signs hinting at their otherworldly nature. The beasts act in perfect unison, and each one is fully controlled by the vampire. Upon resuming his normal form, the vampire only retains the wounds suffered by the least wounded animal. This devotion lasts for a night. This devotion costs 5 experiences to learn.

This I like Feels very much "Hellsing Alucard Level 0 restraint release" which i approve of

Discipline points feels good. Its clearly a Protean based Devotion due to the shape-shifting; and its on par with "Unnatural Aspect" which justifies the horrific forms. "Raise the Familiar" fits in too on the idea of controlling a "pack". And the Resilience makes sense (you literally rip yourself into pieces - that requires some fortitude to survive! )

The cost for effect feels decent too. 5 Vitae for potentially 2-5 predatory creatures is dangerous! And the theme that each is one of the Vampire's "Beast Shapes" is very thematic - showing off their full "predatory form menegere".

If anything this power is TOO good. As such there are a few questions that need to be considered and clarified. Specifically (if I am reading the idea right) it allows you to make "duplicates" of yourself via multiple animal forms (aka allows you to use multiple uses of "Beast Skin"). If so:

• Can the Pack be all Size 7 Animals? Or is there a "mass-maximum limit"?
• Do the animals need remain within a certian proxmity of each other?
• If the "wound limit" is "the least wounded animal", could the vampire not just keep one "human-sized-health-pool animal" at a distance while letting the rest go at it? Would give the vampire free Health to throw at a target without taking any injury in the process?
  • Alternatively, what if the Animals had a "shared" health pool? The vampire takes 1 point of damage for every X wounds the animals suffer (so there is always a degree of "feedback").
• With the sensory perception being seen through multiple animals, could this cause Frenzy in the vampire from sensory overload/ madness (maybe implemented to add a weakness to this powerful effect?)?
• Since the Vampire can use Disciplines while in "Beast Skin" does the pack allow them to use one Discipline per Animal in pack per turn? If I learn "Dominate 1" can I have my 5 animals attempt to command 5 different humans to "Freeze"?

Mechanically its a GREAT idea, feels VERY Gangrel, but its also quite powerful and feels exploitable... which COULD be good given how hard it is to learn! But I feel it needs some revision

P.S.: There IS "technically" a peak Gangrel Devotion in the book - "Force of Nature" (page 144). It costs +2 more Resistance and uses Vigor instead of Animalisim (not a Clan discipline, but still easily accessable for any Gangrel), but it could be something worth reviewing for ideas to balance against this one.

The Haunting (Nightmare 4, Obfuscate 2, Vigor 2)
Cost: 5 Vitae
The vampire imposes his will on the target, leading them to perceive a ghost-like echo of the vampire everywhere they go. The vampire only needs to see the target and utter a few words, and for five days thereafter, the victim is followed by an apparition which looks like the vampire and no one else can see. The Storyteller plays the role of the apparition, which torments the target by constantly terrifying them through appearing and disappearing at will and playing small tricks on them. For everyday that the curse lasts, the victim temporarily loses a point in all mental and social merits, as it slowly alienates itself from the world around them. Those points are recovered at a once per day rate once the devotion is over. The vampire can lift the curse at any time, which counts as hard leverage in a social interaction. This devotion costs 5 experiences to learn.

This seems good too. Very Nosferatu. Its a Nightmare focused effect that feels similar to Nightmare 4 "Waking Nightmare". And the "losing social merits" is a nice mechanic to justify the sense of isolation. However the 5 days DOES mean it makes ALL social merits hit 0 after that time. And if the Nossie hits them with this AGAIN every 6 days, they are going to be permanently isolated.

Something about it feels... TOO powerful for me. There is no defense to it. Vampire or Human suffers equally.

I also dislike anything that give the Storyteller MORE work! Keep the Nossie in charge of their "ghost". Otherwise the Storyteller (being busy with ALL the other players as well) MAY say "uh its there and its doing spooky things" because they don't have time to role play a character that a player is making them interact with.

Alternatively, say the Nossie is in charge of their Apparition UNLESS the Storyteller chooses otherwise (making the apparition into less a dependant and extra bit of work; and more into a tool that is on hand to be used).

The Vassal (Animalism 2, Dominate 4, Resilience 2)
Cost: 5 Vitae
This perfidious Devotion requires the human target to consume at least one Vitae, included in the cost of this Devotion. If the victim dies at any point in the next twenty-four hours, they rise again as a pale imitation of the Embrace. The victim retains the same Traits they had when they were alive, and recovers their full health track. In addition, and follow the vampire’s bidding without question, and the vampire can communicate silently with it regardless of distance. Their appearance remains the same as the one they had at the time of death however, and continually degrades over time. The victim suffers one point of lethal damage every week, and cannot heal through any means. However, it gains 2/2 armor, does not need food, drink, or rest, and any attempt to control it through supernatural means requires a Clash of Will. This devotion costs 5 experiences to learn.

This also has merit. Very "Necromancer". Very Ventrue. A few things though:

• Pale Imitation of the Embrace... isn't that a Ghoul? Cause it SOUNDS like a Ghoul!
• Furthermore - isn't a Ghoul BETTER than this? They don't decay over time. They can learn and use Disciplines. They can use Vitate to heal themselves. They can ACTUALLY heal themselves
  • The only merits I can see they have over a Ghoul is that they only need 5 vitae to create (though if they are killed 25 hours later; the blood is wasted), they re-spawn INSTANTLY on death, have armor, and have some brain-washing resistance.
• If this was a "Ghoul Upgrade" that could have a bit more power to it - i mean the very ACT of this Disicipline is almost Ghoul creation (they just need spend 1 Willpower when they do it). As it stands, the question is "why would I spend 5xp on this when I can do something almost as good for less"