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Can a Vampire pull punches?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

    Well, yeah. Nothing about vampire bodies works like human bodies do. Their thoughts have nothing to do with their neurons because they don’t fire. Their emotions have nothing to do with neurochemistry because they don’t produce neurotransmitters. Their sensory perception has nothing to do with their nerves. Nothing about vampires makes sense if you try to think of it in terms of biology because vampires are not bio-organisms. They are lumps of dead tissue that magically regenerate or degenerate as necessary to their state at the time of death.


    OH... re reading things

    Had been thinking he asked if they forget everything each night in the cleansing.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

      Well, yeah. Nothing about vampire bodies works like human bodies do. Their thoughts have nothing to do with their neurons because they don’t fire. Their emotions have nothing to do with neurochemistry because they don’t produce neurotransmitters. Their sensory perception has nothing to do with their nerves. Nothing about vampires makes sense if you try to think of it in terms of biology because vampires are not bio-organisms. They are lumps of dead tissue that magically regenerate or degenerate as necessary to their state at the time of death.

      And yet a vampire *is* blinded if they lose their eyes, and I'm pretty sure they don't continue to function if you surgically remove the brain they're supposedly no longer using.

      I'm not suggesting this or any game should attempt to adhere to real world logic, I just think the discrepancies are interesting.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by HelmsDerp View Post
        And yet a vampire *is* blinded if they lose their eyes,
        Not if they reduce the damage to 0 with active Vigor.
        Originally posted by HelmsDerp View Post
        and I'm pretty sure they don't continue to function if you surgically remove the brain they're supposedly no longer using.
        I’m actually not convinced vampires need their brains to remain unliving in 2e.


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        • #19
          Pg 141, right after the text explaining Resilience: "If an injury specifically removes a limb, an eye, or so on, the vampire does suffer logical impairments from the injuries"



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          • #20
            yes but they CAN regenerate their eyes

            then their not blind anymore.

            but yes removal of the brain does kill them.


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            • #21
              Wouldn't this mean that a vampire would be fairly easily killed by a simple head shot, classical zombie style since, unless we are talking very small calibers, most bullets easily open up the back of a cranium taking with them most of the brain?
              Last edited by TittoPaolo210; 05-21-2018, 08:47 AM.

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              • #22
                Their magic does harden their skull.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                  Their magic does harden their skull.
                  No, it doesn't. Vampires' bodies are just as structurally weak as humans'. The reason vampires take bashing instead of lethal is because they simply don't use their bodies. Not even Resilience protects their bodies against damage. It only makes the damage have even less of an effect.

                  Besides, in this system not even a human would go down with a bullet to the head unless it was a good shot (an Exceptional, even, with light pistol/revolver).


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by TittoPaolo210 View Post
                    Wouldn't this mean that a vampire would be fairly easily killed by a simple head shot, classical zombie style since, unless we are talking very small calibers, most bullets easily open up the back of a cranium taking with them most of the brain?
                    Remember that the results of an attack are fairly abstract. If you take an aimed shot at a character’s head, that shot only kills them if it does enough damage to kill them, which means most head shots with firearms should probably be narrated as grazing unless they do a lot of damage.

                    That said, the exact same head shot that does 7 lethal to a human would only do 7 bashing damage to a vampire. And the reason vampires downgrade damage is because the just don’t need their bodies. What this says to me is that a bullet to the brain would in fact not kill a Requiem 2e Vampire. Extrapolating from the difference between temporary and permanent arm and leg wrack, we can assume that complete removal or destruction of the head would require a full track of agg to a human, which would only be lethal to a vampire, and full lethal doesn’t kill a vampire either, only puts it in torpor.

                    Now the counter-argument here is that decapitation as a way to permanently kill a vampire is almost universal in Modern vampire fiction, and as a storytelling game, Requiem shouldn’t change that just because of a quirk of the way the rules for damage work. And that’s a very strong counter-argument. So strong, I really can’t rebut it, except by saying that I personally like my fiction to be consistent with the mechanics in this case. Of course, I’m biased in that I’ve never liked head removal or brain destruction permanently killing vampires.


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                    • #25
                      In the Mekhet clan book there was a vampire who believed that their brain was removed before they were embraced.

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                      • #26
                        I usually go with "vampires are killed by symbolism". Sun kills because it represents purity. Fire hurts because it represents mortal knowledge against the forces of dark. Decapitation works because it represents judgement.

                        So, in my games, brain removal doesn't kill vampires, not even removing all the head except for the jaw kills. It may be enough damage to torpor, but if it's not a total decapitation, it doesn't kill.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                          Remember that the results of an attack are fairly abstract. If you take an aimed shot at a character’s head, that shot only kills them if it does enough damage to kill them, which means most head shots with firearms should probably be narrated as grazing unless they do a lot of damage.

                          That said, the exact same head shot that does 7 lethal to a human would only do 7 bashing damage to a vampire. And the reason vampires downgrade damage is because the just don’t need their bodies. What this says to me is that a bullet to the brain would in fact not kill a Requiem 2e Vampire. Extrapolating from the difference between temporary and permanent arm and leg wrack, we can assume that complete removal or destruction of the head would require a full track of agg to a human, which would only be lethal to a vampire, and full lethal doesn’t kill a vampire either, only puts it in torpor.

                          Now the counter-argument here is that decapitation as a way to permanently kill a vampire is almost universal in Modern vampire fiction, and as a storytelling game, Requiem shouldn’t change that just because of a quirk of the way the rules for damage work. And that’s a very strong counter-argument. So strong, I really can’t rebut it, except by saying that I personally like my fiction to be consistent with the mechanics in this case. Of course, I’m biased in that I’ve never liked head removal or brain destruction permanently killing vampires.
                          HelmsDerp just quoted mechanics text that says that vampires do suffer logical impairments from loss of the body part though.

                          That doesn't have to mean that vampires die if decapitated, though a logical impairment for losing your head is total incapacitation until regenerated.

                          But the intent seems pretty clear that body parts are still important to a vampire.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by HelmsDerp View Post


                            And yet a vampire *is* blinded if they lose their eyes


                            Unless you have some skill in Auspex, which grants you access to 6th sense capabilities, including the use of astrally projecting your senses outside of your body.


                            And on that note, Dominate and Animalism both give you the power to project your mind into another creature and manipulate its body.


                            Defying the laws of natural biology is kind of why vampires are considered "supernatural."



                            Originally posted by TittoPaolo210 View Post
                            I usually go with "vampires are killed by symbolism". Sun kills because it represents purity. Fire hurts because it represents mortal knowledge against the forces of dark. Decapitation works because it represents judgement.

                            Real world mythology would support your idea. The whole garlic myth came about because garlic has cleansing properties, which is why people thought that it could ward off vampire attacks, or even destroy them outright.


                            Same thing with silver, as it has long been considered to be a "pure" metal, and thus had the power to banish evil forces. Hence why it's often used to combat lycanthropes and the undead.
                            Last edited by Nyrufa; 05-24-2018, 05:47 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by TGUEIROS View Post

                              HelmsDerp just quoted mechanics text that says that vampires do suffer logical impairments from loss of the body part though.

                              That doesn't have to mean that vampires die if decapitated, though a logical impairment for losing your head is total incapacitation until regenerated.

                              But the intent seems pretty clear that body parts are still important to a vampire.
                              Important in the sense that some body parts are useful, sure. Having arms and hands makes manipulating objects a lot easier, legs are convenient for mobility, and I’ll concede that eyes are apparently necessary for vampires to see. But they don’t need functioning lungs, livers, kidneys, or even hearts (though getting wood in their hearts causes them problems for other reasons than imparing their biological function.) I don’t see why brains should be any different. It’s also worth repeating that not needing their meat intact to survive is the stated reason vampires downgrade mundane damage and how resilience works.


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                                Important in the sense that some body parts are useful, sure. Having arms and hands makes manipulating objects a lot easier, legs are convenient for mobility, and I’ll concede that eyes are apparently necessary for vampires to see. But they don’t need functioning lungs, livers, kidneys, or even hearts (though getting wood in their hearts causes them problems for other reasons than imparing their biological function.) I don’t see why brains should be any different. It’s also worth repeating that not needing their meat intact to survive is the stated reason vampires downgrade mundane damage and how resilience works.
                                Oh, I agree that it isn't a biological thing. I just think that the head itself is very symbolic and has rooted mythical significance to a "standard" vampire existence.

                                Its not that they die because they need their brain to send electrical pulses that command their other organs.

                                Its that they if they get their head cutoff they die. Because that is a thing that kills them. Or at least stops them until they regen.

                                I think that stylistically it resonates much more with vampires, other than have headless bodies searching for their heads while being screamed at by said head, which is much more a zombie/frankenstein trope.

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