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How to fight Carthian Law?

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  • #31
    and the term is acolyte, not crone for anyone but an actual crone, nitpicking I know but.


    whats midnight mass for the sanctum going to look like if it has 2 or 3 members?

    just "Gather and pray"?


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    • #32
      Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
      and the term is acolyte, not crone for anyone but an actual crone, nitpicking I know but.


      whats midnight mass for the sanctum going to look like if it has 2 or 3 members?

      just "Gather and pray"?


      I imagine they would scale back the usual rituals due to "budget cuts" until they were able to recruit some new members.

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      • #33
        Have secret's of the Covenent's?

        Establish Precedent can outlaw all kinds of discipline usage in a domain.

        Though I'd argue it will probaly just piss off acolytes.

        And lead to the death of the guy who established the precedent.


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        • #34
          *Desire to write a setting with Secret Laws in opposition to an Invictus Domain rising.*

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
            Have secret's of the Covenent's?

            Establish Precedent can outlaw all kinds of discipline usage in a domain.



            Okay, NO!

            Hell No!

            If the Carthians even dared to joke about trying something like that, I would rule that the court room is instantly filled with the sound of the other covenants drawing their weapons!


            The Circle of the Crone formed as a covenant specifically to combat the prejudice they faced in ancient times and keep the old faiths alive.

            The Lancea Sanctum are fanatic zealots who believe that they have a divine mandate to embrace their monstrous existence.

            The Invictus was created by and for the oldest and most powerful vampires and has always focused itself on maintaining their power for as long as possible.

            The Ordo Dracul seek to refine themselves into a higher state of being.


            No god damn way do a bunch of Fledglings and Ancillae get to roll into the neighborhood and tell the grown ups that they are required by law to abandon their ancient traditions, stop using their signature abilities, or to abdicate their thrones

            That is an instant, non-negotiable blood hunt!
            Last edited by Nyrufa; 06-04-2018, 01:25 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
              That is an instant, non-negotiable blood hunt!
              Nyr, this question remains as important as ever:

              Have you read the power in question?

              Establish Precedent is a facet of Carthian Law that requires a near-maximum degree of Status on the part of the invoker, requires that the precedent being enforced actually exist, costs the investment of a Willpower dot per precedent, lasts a year and a day, and translates to no more than one point of aggravated damage, a recognizable brand that can't be healed for a lunar month, and a specific bane for offenders, who have to have violated the edict knowingly and consciously.

              Ignoring the fact that this isn't what blood hunts are for, none of that stops a character from breaking the law more than thirteen times in the effect's duration or performing outlawed rituals outside the bounds of the domain.


              Resident Sanguinary Analyst
              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                Nyr, this question remains as important as ever:

                Have you read the power in question?

                Establish Precedent is a facet of Carthian Law that requires a near-maximum degree of Status on the part of the invoker, requires that the precedent being enforced actually exist, costs the investment of a Willpower dot per precedent, lasts a year and a day, and translates to no more than one point of aggravated damage, a recognizable brand that can't be healed for a lunar month, and a specific bane for offenders, who have to have violated the edict knowingly and consciously.

                Ignoring the fact that this isn't what blood hunts are for, none of that stops a character from breaking the law more than thirteen times in the effect's duration or performing outlawed rituals outside the bounds of the domain.


                I'm not seeing anything in that write up that defuncts my version of the subject's response to having it issued. It can only be used by somebody at the higher chains of command?

                So what? They're still not a member of whatever clan or covenant they're trying to outlaw. So that status position means absolutely nothing, unless they happen to be the ruler of the specified Domain.


                And I say again, the Circle of the Crone was founded in order to fight against the prejudices they suffered in the past. The pagan faiths were being wiped out via genocide by the more 'civilized' cultures of the time. If the Carthians tried to persecute them again, I would expect nothing less than some form of retaliation from the Circle. Especially since even learning Cruac in the first place degrades your maximum level of Humanity, thus making you more prone to violent impulses as the Beast holds greater sway over your soul.


                Advancement in the Invictus is a slow and painstaking process that can take decades or even centuries for a plan to come to fruition. Vampires don't die of old age, after all, which means you don't have the luxury of waiting the Elders out. You need to seize their position by the more underhanded means. Then after all that hard work and meticulous planning, some ass hole walks into your office, hands you a slip of paper and says it's time for you to get out?


                I'm sorry, but the only conceivable way I can accept the Carthians having that level of power is if they specifically hold the position as ruler of the Domain, and even then, it should instigate a civil war among any victims who reside in that Domain.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                  I'm not seeing anything in that write up that defuncts my version of the subject's response to having it issued. It can only be used by somebody at the higher chains of command?
                  […]
                  I'm sorry, but the only conceivable way I can accept the Carthians having that level of power is if they specifically hold the position as ruler of the Domain, and even then, it should instigate a civil war among any victims who reside in that Domain.
                  My dude, it is a power that, like every other element of Carthian Law, relies on the laws of the domain supporting it. It literally calls for there being an actual law against the act in question. The Carthians can try to engineer it so that a law is passed that punishes the performance of ritual magic within the domain, but without a precedent they have nothing to build off of.

                  A high-ranking Carthian can, if they are quick and savvy and have their finger on the pulse of local Kindred politics, leverage their covenant's mystical backing to hamper or entrap their enemies in a particular fashion for a year and a day. This is not going to stop two of the least-populous covenants from conducting their usual business save in the most absurd and contrived circumstances.

                  It's definitely not going to actually outlaw an entire organization in any way that, say, calling a blood hunt wouldn't manage a thousand times more efficiently, because Establish Precedent cannot be used to punish things that aren't actions — you can't ban the Daeva from a domain with that part of Carthian Law, nor is membership in the Ordo a valid crime.

                  Even setting aside that it is literally one of the things the Carthians are supposed to be able to theoretically manage to dismantle the structure of a domain and overthrow it under the right circumstances, nothing about the way the power works warrants this kind of reaction from an unbiased reading of the text.


                  Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                  Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                    My dude, it is a power that, like every other element of Carthian Law, relies on the laws of the domain supporting it. It literally calls for there being an actual law against the act in question.

                    Oh, I must have missed that part. It's like 2:30 in the morning over here, so I'm obviously tired.


                    So basically, what I'm getting from this is that it's a power that allows the Carthians to enforce laws that are already put in place by having offenders manifest a brand that proves their guilt?

                    That's more acceptable, I guess.

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                    • #40
                      Which do you think is more appropriate? a blood hunt? or a blood bond?

                      would it be worthwhile seeing Elysium if Carthians tried to get a law passed against Cruac in a domain?
                      Last edited by Prince of the Night; 06-04-2018, 07:23 AM.


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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                        Oh, I must have missed that part. It's like 2:30 in the morning over here, so I'm obviously tired.


                        So basically, what I'm getting from this is that it's a power that allows the Carthians to enforce laws that are already put in place by having offenders manifest a brand that proves their guilt?

                        That's more acceptable, I guess.

                        Yes for Carthian Law to apply to all Kindred in the Domain, it needs to be an actual law, given from the highest authority in the City, usually the Prince.
                        However, the rules that the Carthian themselves make, are treated as Carthian Law to anyone that is a member of their movement.

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                        • #42
                          which will do little more then discourage moonlighting in their covenent.

                          Something their aware of I think.


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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                            Which do you think is more appropriate? a blood hunt? or a blood bond?

                            would it be worthwhile seeing Elysium if Carthians tried to get a law passed against Cruac in a domain?
                            Such things completely depend on the domain. The differences between domains is more than just how much presence each Covenant has in them. The individuals and the political climate at large will have huge consequences for what's most appropriate. In one domain the Prince might be seen as tyrannical and lose support if they call a blood hunt. In another the Prince might have to call a blood hunt or otherwise they'll be seen as a weak ruler and lose support. The Prince's own history also matters. If they've called for blood hunts multiple times before and don't do it this then there will be a lot of rumours as to why they didn't do it.


                            Bloodline: The Stygians
                            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                            • #44
                              thoughts on how a blood bond can be seen as humiliation


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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                                thoughts on how a blood bond can be seen as humiliation


                                The fact that every vampire who knows how blood bonds work will be aware of the fact you've become somebody's love sick slave?

                                The fact that creating a blood bond takes place over a 3 night period, meaning you've got at least 2 chances to escape before that happens?

                                The fact a blood bond is almost impossible to break without the final death of you or your master?

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