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Flock vs Herd

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  • #16
    A little help in thinking about it? Does having Flock make you Herd bigger or does that just represent you Herd being more attuned with you. I ask because at first since it gives you more Herd dots you'd assume your Herd gets bigger, but since there's a prerequisite for it does that mean your Herd just stays the same size but you get an upgrade essentially? Just wanting to clear that up for a role-play perspective.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Iceblade44 View Post
      A little help in thinking about it? Does having Flock make you Herd bigger or does that just represent you Herd being more attuned with you. I ask because at first since it gives you more Herd dots you'd assume your Herd gets bigger, but since there's a prerequisite for it does that mean your Herd just stays the same size but you get an upgrade essentially? Just wanting to clear that up for a role-play perspective.
      Per the Merit's description, it's both — a Flock is a Herd empowered and emboldened by their patron, and these qualities attract more vessels through their faith.


      Resident Sanguinary Analyst
      Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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      • #18
        Originally posted by nofather View Post
        ...

        It's also worth noting that you can only drink freely from your Herd once per week, gaining twice the Merit's dot rating in Vitae...
        I'm away from the book right now, but, where are you getting this from?

        From what I can remember, and how we always played, the Merit says you have access to a certain pool of Vitae per week, and that to feed you must have a minor interaction with your Herd.

        I don't recall any restrictions on how many times you may visit your Herd per week.
        Last edited by TGUEIROS; 06-11-2018, 01:37 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
          The description of Flock seems to indicate that there isn't much of an actual distinction between the characters representing the Flock dots and the characters representing the Herd dots, since the Flock is a modifier on the Herd.
          Originally posted by Iceblade44 View Post
          A little help in thinking about it? Does having Flock make you Herd bigger or does that just represent you Herd being more attuned with you. I ask because at first since it gives you more Herd dots you'd assume your Herd gets bigger, but since there's a prerequisite for it does that mean your Herd just stays the same size but you get an upgrade essentially? Just wanting to clear that up for a role-play perspective.
          We play as it making your Herd bigger, and you only get WP when feeding from those of your Herd that are also your Flock.

          Its like you have a group of followers (Herd), and within that group there is another group of particularly devoted followers (Flock), who get a special benefit from your Predation, and who benefit you specially when Feeding from them.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by TGUEIROS View Post
            I'm away from the book right now, but, where are you getting this from?
            The benefits of Herd, expressed in pure mechanics, are "you can take up to twice your rating in Vitae per week without a roll." Anything more takes hunting rolls, for which your Herd provides no innate benefit to the pursuit of any given target.


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            Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
              The benefits of Herd, expressed in pure mechanics, are "you can take up to twice your rating in Vitae per week without a roll." Anything more takes hunting rolls, for which your Herd provides no innate benefit to the pursuit of any given target.
              Not really relevant to the part TGUEIROS reacted to, which is the claim that you can only use Herd once per week instead of spreading it out over several feeding opportunities. If you can only feed once per week from your Herd, the benefit of gaining Willpower from feeding on your Flock would no longer scale with your Flock dots, which is the biggest reason for buying Flock instead of Herd in the first place. That can't be intended, and it makes no sense why you could only feed once per week rather then spreading it out over several Herd members and not draining them when you feed.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                The benefits of Herd, expressed in pure mechanics, are "you can take up to twice your rating in Vitae per week without a roll." Anything more takes hunting rolls, for which your Herd provides no innate benefit to the pursuit of any given target.
                And where does it say it has to be all in one go?

                It says take up to twice your rating in Vitae per week. So if you have Herd 3, you can take up to 6 per week with no roll. Could be six times taking one Vitae each, 2 taking 3, 3 taking 2, etc... As long as it remains rating x2 per week.

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                • #23
                  A curiousity? Can Flock (or temple of damnation) be taken by the circle? both seem like they'd work.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                    A curiousity? Can Flock (or temple of damnation) be taken by the circle? both seem like they'd work.
                    Not rules as written.

                    If the ST thinks it makes sense, and doesn't have any balance concerns through the mixing of Covenant specific Merits, then anything goes, right?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by TGUEIROS View Post

                      Not rules as written.

                      If the ST thinks it makes sense, and doesn't have any balance concerns through the mixing of Covenant specific Merits, then anything goes, right?


                      Fair enough.

                      Logicly, do you see any problems? since the Circle has mortal cultists and holy places too, and some are temples not groves.


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                      • #26
                        The Circle and Lancea are empowered from different sources, this being one of the big differences between them. I wouldn't do it, but it's a once just Vitae and Willpower so it's not going to break a game, you can kill some random on the street and get as much without having to pay Experiences for it. Though if it's in the name of 'balance' why not just make it available for every covenant.
                        Last edited by nofather; 06-11-2018, 11:55 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                          Not really relevant to the part TGUEIROS reacted to, which is the claim that you can only use Herd once per week instead of spreading it out over several feeding opportunities.
                          Originally posted by TGUEIROS View Post
                          And where does it say it has to be all in one go?
                          I misunderstood the question, which happens when you've been awake for fourteen hours and the operative part being responded to is left in the middle of the quotation and the immediate followup sentence is phrased in a way that can be read as either a question of whether you can still feed on your Herd beyond the free points or whether you can split up the points over multiple visits when the "one visit" confusion is obfuscated as mentioned above.

                          It is important to emphasize points you're responding to in a body of text or otherwise make them plain through formatting.


                          Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                          Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post



                            Fair enough.

                            Logicly, do you see any problems? since the Circle has mortal cultists and holy places too, and some are temples not groves.
                            I would be more amneable to a Circle version of the Temple of Damnation than of Flock. The rationale for Flock is that the Predation you visit on your Flock strenghtens them, it is too involved with the ethos of the Lance, and I don't see it translating well to the Circle's take on the relatioship between Kindred and Kine.

                            If you have Flock 5, then you also have Herd 5, so that gives you 20 Vitae per week, and a potential 10 Willpower points per week. Which is a very vast pool of resources. I wouldn't want that combining with other ways to access free Vitae, like the Mandragora Garden for example.

                            People haven't addressed where they are getting this once a week restriction, but now that I am at home with my book, I can see it doesn't exist in the Merit itself. So unless they come up with some text that says that somewhere else, that is just a misconception they believe to be true. Here is the Merit's text;

                            Herd (• to •••••)
                            Effect: Your character cultivates cliques of mortals willing
                            and eager for the Kiss. Each week, you can draw on a number
                            of Vitae equal to twice the Merit’s dot rating. This requires no
                            roll, only a quick interlude. Taking more than that amount
                            requires normal hunting rolls.
                            Drawback: Addicts need their fix. Sometimes, they demand
                            attention. If neglected, they’ll withdraw. Your character must
                            have at least minor interactions with her Herd before they’ll
                            give blood freely.

                            Nothing here gives any limit on how many times a week you may access your Herd, it only gives a limit to the amount of Vitae you take.

                            EDIT: Satchel has clarified their position. And nofather too.
                            Last edited by TGUEIROS; 06-12-2018, 01:10 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                              I misunderstood the question, which happens when you've been awake for fourteen hours and the operative part being responded to is left in the middle of the quotation and the immediate followup sentence is phrased in a way that can be read as either a question of whether you can still feed on your Herd beyond the free points or whether you can split up the points over multiple visits when the "one visit" confusion is obfuscated as mentioned above.

                              It is important to emphasize points you're responding to in a body of text or otherwise make them plain through formatting.
                              The point I responded to is very clearly stated in my response.

                              I say;

                              "From what I can remember, and how we always played, the Merit says you have access to a certain pool of Vitae per week, and that to feed you must have a minor interaction with your Herd.

                              I don't recall any restrictions on how many times you may visit your Herd per week"

                              How much clearer do I need to be? I quoted the relevant sentence, and I don't think anyone is disputing the amount of Vitae gained, so... What else is there?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by TGUEIROS View Post
                                People haven't addressed where they are getting this once a week restriction, but now that I am at home with my book, I can see it doesn't exist in the Merit itself. So unless they come up with some text that says that somewhere else, that is just a misconception they believe to be true.
                                I relayed the information wrong. Thanks for clearing it up though next time you might want to make one post and edit it.

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