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[2E] Army of Ghouls?

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  • [2E] Army of Ghouls?

    So I got theoretical/practical question on nature of Ghoul-dom in 2E VtR - is it possible for Kindred to sustain large number of Ghouls to 'bodygaurding' them? I run early Middle Ages game of Werewolf and want to put wolves PCs against Slavic vampiric cult, lead by 5 Pijavica vampires. Of course, 5 vamps is really nothing for pack of werewolves in combat scene.

    So I wonder HOW MANY Ghouls can each vampire sustain, in reality? 5 per one Kindred at once? 10 maybe? How would they work then, mechanics wise? They would be 'Brief Nightmares' from CoD Rulebook, with only one or two Physical Disciplines? How thing like that would you run it?


    LGBT+ in CoD games
    Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
    Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
    Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
    My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

  • #2
    Ghouls can have any number of Discipline dots, just like vampires (but will likely focus on the same ones as their regnants). New ghouls start with a single dot according to the amended Retainer in VTR core. How many dots you should give them depend on how long these ghouls have been in service and how challenging you wish the encounter to be. The natural Disciplines to choose would be the physical ones, but you might want to throw in some Obfuscate, Nightmare and Protean (the last one being common for Pijavica) to switch it up and provide some interesting effects, providing the ghouls have had access to learn those Disciplines.

    How many ghouls can be sustained depends on how much Vitae the vampire has access to and how much Vitae the ghouls commonly spend. It costs one Vitae per month to keep a ghoul in ghouldom, but they also need to get extra Vitae from their regnants in order to use it for Disciplines. But as long as they don't use too many Vitae each month the vampires should be able to drain more Vitae from them than they use up, making it theoretically possible to keep an unlimited amount of ghouls. The limit would instead be how many ghouls they can keep without it being suspicious to the general population of humans.

    As for systems, I'm very familiar with VTR so I'd use the full rules, but brief nightmares with Discipline dots instead of Dread Powers would definitely also work and might be the better choice for you.

    Edit: This is the kind of question that would fit perfectly in the Simple Questions thread. Same for any follow up questions.


    Bloodline: The Stygians
    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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    • #3
      The technically true answer is as many as they can sustain.

      If a vampire were immune to degeneration when exsanguinishing people and could without difficulty obtain bodies, they could feast and bleed until they've feed as many ghouls as they please. As even my hypothetically shows, the limitations are the logistics and exposures. You have 100 ghouls you surround yourself with and feed during a feast? Gee, I sure hope they never riot and force the blood from your veins. You have no problem doing this daily to get around? That blood bureaucracy certainly looks exploitable. Only a 20% chance of blood addiction? Good thing I've got eighty ghouls to hold down the other 20. And so on and so forth.

      So five ghouls per handsome leech in the medieval era? Sounds reasonable.

      (All this is based on what I remember of the rules. Someone should likely verify.)

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      • #4
        Tessie in there just before I. :P

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        • #5
          Thanks for Disciplines package ideas.

          Originally posted by Tessie View Post
          How many ghouls can be sustained depends on how much Vitae the vampire has access to and how much Vitae the ghouls commonly spend. It costs one Vitae per month to keep a ghoul in ghouldom, but they also need to get extra Vitae from their regnants in order to use it for Disciplines. But as long as they don't use too many Vitae each month the vampires should be able to drain more Vitae from them than they use up, making it theoretically possible to keep an unlimited amount of ghouls. The limit would instead be how many ghouls they can keep without it being suspicious to the general population of humans.
          If I remember correctly 2E VtR rules, each Kindred need to burn 1 Vitea per night of existence, yes? So with more higher numbers of possible Ghouls they have under their command, each future Ghoul can be 'snacked' for 3 Lethals and giving his regent there 3 Vitea, Ghoul then returns to full health in one week - and easily can be reproduce 'blood sacrifice' rite for next week. So there we have that each Ghoul ( if not rebelling ) can produce 12 Vitea per month, minus 1 Vitea of unkeep for their Ghouldom. That's 11 Vitea per Ghoul per month. Putting those divided between regenet Kindred and some left in Ghoul - it sitll like 5 Vitea in plus per month on each Ghoul. ( I cost about 3-4 Vitea for regents matters and 2 Vitea per Ghoul so he could use Disciplienes or instant healing twice per month. )

          Now, thinking about it - Would small village, circa 50 persons, be reasonable Ghouled and commanded by 5 vampires? Animalism on higher levels could help in controling humans, yes? As I think it would be more plausible from having 'half of village works in secret for us for our Blood' - simply just saying 'they ALL work for us'. Less need for secrecy and rising tension in nearby village...



          LGBT+ in CoD games
          Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
          Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
          Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
          My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

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          • #6
            Making Ghouls take Willpower. Willpower isn't easily replenished by our favorite Undead, unless that specific act reaffirms their Mask and/or Dirge. You do the math.

            And, no, Ghouls need 1 vitae per month to retain their disciplines.

            It can easily become an issue if you have more ghouls than you can handle. You need infrastructure. Or human sacrifices.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Malus View Post
              Making Ghouls take Willpower. Willpower isn't easily replenished by our favorite Undead, unless that specific act reaffirms their Mask and/or Dirge.
              Or defends their connection to their Touchstones, which is similarly unlikely.

              They might make use of the Mother-Daughter Bond or similar True Friend analogues, but that's dramatically more limited in frequency than, say, gunning for exceptional success on rolls to resist frenzy.

              It can easily become an issue if you have more ghouls than you can handle. You need infrastructure. Or human sacrifices.
              Incidentally, this is part of the reason the physical Disciplines are so valuable for ghouls — they have free effects that make them more effective proxies and their paid effects don't scale in cost.


              Resident Sanguinary Analyst
              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Malus View Post
                Making Ghouls take Willpower. Willpower isn't easily replenished by our favorite Undead, unless that specific act reaffirms their Mask and/or Dirge. You do the math.

                And, no, Ghouls need 1 vitae per month to retain their disciplines.

                It can easily become an issue if you have more ghouls than you can handle. You need infrastructure. Or human sacrifices.
                The question was about sustainability, not recruitment, so the initial WP costs aren't relevant. They could've been paid over several months or years long before the PCs find the village.

                And, yes, Ghouls needing 1 vitae per month is included in wyrd's calculations.


                Bloodline: The Stygians
                Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                • #9
                  I mean, sure, let's wave off relevant variables logistical. Who cares? I don't. It's not my story.

                  Why don't we reduce the exercise of managing undead groupies literally addicted to your blood without imploding into infighting and chaos, and the likely cost of human free will right down to an exercise in algorithms? Sounds super fun.

                  Just add enough ghouls to make it a challenge to your werewolves, you have access to their sheet.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Malus View Post
                    Making Ghouls take Willpower. Willpower isn't easily replenished by our favorite Undead, unless that specific act reaffirms their Mask and/or Dirge. You do the math.
                    Paying 1 Willpower point per month to introduce 1 of 10 Ghouls under regent Kindred is more than managable. Even if Kindred do not get 1 WP each day, just for sleeping.

                    Originally posted by Malus View Post
                    It can easily become an issue if you have more ghouls than you can handle. You need infrastructure. Or human sacrifices.
                    Well, this group is high in the human sacrifices from the start, you know... And I would argue that is easier to manage whole village of ghouled slaves raised that whole life, not knowing anything other than ghouldom - than few rebeling 'new souls' that started this whole shtick decades ago.

                    Do not this constant communities of ghouls are Ghoul Families, or something, if I recall collectly? That in some time those processes of blood slavery are normalized in long term?

                    And yes, those guys are clearly one of worst blood slavery vampires NPCs. They are not to be liked in the story. They are antagonists to pack of werewolves.



                    LGBT+ in CoD games
                    Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
                    Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
                    Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
                    My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                      . Of course, 5 vamps is really nothing for pack of werewolves in combat scene.
                      I really disagree on this, if you use 2ed system, but I'm not going to reopen an old thread with thousands of posts

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                        I really disagree on this, if you use 2ed system, but I'm not going to reopen an old thread with thousands of posts
                        Some key points? Some general hints will work enough, really. As I already run combat scene of Blood Potency 3-5 Nosferatu vamps and Disiciplines 3-4 dots each in monastery versus 3 almost chargen Uratha - and Kindred were wiped, simply by Death Rage mechanics.


                        LGBT+ in CoD games
                        Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
                        Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
                        Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
                        My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                          Some key points? Some general hints will work enough, really. As I already run combat scene of Blood Potency 3-5 Nosferatu vamps and Disiciplines 3-4 dots each in monastery versus 3 almost chargen Uratha - and Kindred were wiped, simply by Death Rage mechanics.
                          There is a huge topic, I'll try to find it. Basically someone is agreeing that a Combat focused werewolf (in garou) could have some advantage on a combat focused vampire. But then everything depends on the build. With Mental disciplines you can easily let some werewolf flee or even attack his mates. 1v1 there were a guy that made statistical test, on 5 or ten combat with BP 5 Primal urge 5 focused oriented character and it resulted in mostly win the kindred when he got the initiative, and basically a fifty fifty when the werewolf got initiative.
                          A must have for the kindred is dealing aggravated damage (like claws of the unholy which was what he used), otherwise the regeneration of the werewolf overcome the damage input, usually.

                          Try to consider High physical disciplines, maybe coil of the wyrm that increases Defense, Health and speed by your BP, consider + BP from frenzy and always boost your strength with blood.
                          And this without considering devotions like Bone of the mo7untain that allow you to increase effective resilence by your protean and use all vigor and resilence effect for free (spending the devotion cost each turn.
                          Those are just suggestion, as I said someone made some fight tests in that topic. I'll try to recover it.
                          Furthermore the Garou transformation last just few turns than he need to back to other shape losing his regeneration or going in Bashu im (for other few turns attacking even his friends). So you could just obfuscate/melt in the ground, becoming mist, waiting for his garou shape to end.

                          If you are not going to consider a withe room 1v1, you can consider mental discipline, Majesty 4+3 allow a garou to attack her mates without incurring in breaking point, damage. Nightmare 2 allows you to let some werewolves to flee and then focus all the coterie on less target and so on.

                          What I'm saying is that it's not always an automatic win for werewolves, like it was in masquerade. (Even consider backstabbing popping out from obfuscate, avoiding his defense).

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                          • #14
                            Minor nitpick: In Werewolf: the Forsaken Killing Form is Gauru - whole werewolf race is called Uratha. The Garou are name for all werewolves of Werewolf: the Apocalypse.

                            Village of Dotsk
                            Located near dense forest and charming lake, settlement of Dotsk is small farming community that is dedicated to rising ever precious cattle. Some men in village are also woodcutters, delivering needed resource for building huts and heating the fire in them. Others spend few days each year on hunting local prey in woods, for sport and festivals for gods. It all seems like typical 800’s settlement in Eastern Europe.

                            But Dotsk hides secrets. Once a week, at dusk, all man and women of village are going deep into woods. There, on darkness coiled clearing, they meet real ancestors of their community – few Pijavica vampires, following footsteps of god of Underworld Veles. Blood is spilled and their patrons are feeding directly from their necks, enough to make celebrants weak for day or two. Once a month a shapely heifer is sacrificed under the moon instead, and vampire masters then share a dose of their own Blood that fed on sacred cattle to people of Dotsk, sustaining their health and some unnatural prowess. On festivals to gods, some human is sacrificed instead of cattle. People of Dotsk looks most often for passerby’s in woods, as if they cannot deliver other human – they need to spend one of their own. Still, it’s small price for longevity of population and dark miracles of their masters.

                            People of Dotsk are mentally linked with their vampire patrons – if anything harm can be putted on Kindred, people will come to rescue in number of 15 minutes. Of course, Pijavica are calling in their minds members in other occasions or tasks. Presented below statistics are for 10 adult village members, treated as Brief Nightmare of Horde level from CoD Rulebook rules. As Ghouls, they use mechanics of Disciplines and Vitea instead of Dread Powers and Willpower. Each group is connected mentally to one Kindred master.

                            Dotsk Villagers ( group of 10 )
                            Best Dicepool: 7 – Using axes, pitchforks, other farming tools, bows ( some of them )
                            Worst Dicepool: 1 – Understanding foreigners?
                            All Other Pools: 3
                            Willpower: 6 ( Per scene – 3 )
                            Health: 9
                            Defense: 3
                            Speed: 7
                            Armor: 0/0
                            Weapons:
                            Hatchet – Dam: +1 Init: −2 Str: 1 Size: 1 Avab:•
                            Short Bow – Dam: +2 Ran: Medium Capa: Low Init: –3 Str: 2 Size: 3 Avab:••

                            Disciplines: Vigor 3, Resilience 2, Celerity 1, Obfuscate 1, Protean 1, Nightmare ?
                            Vitea: 5/10
                            Blood Potency: 0
                            Last edited by wyrdhamster; 08-10-2018, 12:09 AM.


                            LGBT+ in CoD games
                            Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
                            Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
                            Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
                            My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                              Minor nitpick: In Werewolf: the Forsaken Killing Form is Gauru. The Garou are name for all werewolves of Werewolf: the Apocalypse.
                              Yes, sorry always confusing XD

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