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[2E] Kindred fighting Uratha werewolves

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  • #16
    If you're going into a straight fight, you're doing it wrong.

    Any archetype can win against any other archetype if they utilize their strengths while avoiding their enemy's strengths. Even better if you can take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses while protecting your own. That's what it comes down to.

    A social vampire "wins" against a combat werewolf by avoiding fights and "attacking" via the police, bankers, landlords, media, etc.

    A fight-y vampire "wins" against a werewolf by attacking when the werewolf can't fight back.

    A vampire trying to fight anything on even footing isn't fighting like a vampire. At least, not like a vampire that's going to live beyond "Neonate."

    Werewolves are a splat that get a lot of potent combat bonuses just from their template, so any "fight" against a werewolf should involve trying to find a way to make sure the werewolf can't use those bonuses, not going head-to-head with them.

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    • #17
      soooo. As I said, at low px in a open fight vamps are often disadvantaged with pure number but I'm trying to arrange something.
      I thinks, since it is an ambush, the vamps would be already prepared.

      V1:
      Strh 3, dex 2, stam 3; brwl 4
      Vigor 2; Prot 4 (Bear + Grappling/Claws); Celerity 1; BP 3

      He will be in Bear form so the stats would be: Strength 6 +2(vigor) 8, Brawl 4 (Damage +1 claws +2 Bite); 11 Health.

      Now you can chose to give him Aggravated damage or +4 to Grappling with protean 4. Considering that the Gauru form lasts 2/3 turns, probably a good strategy would be to go for grappling, hoping to win the control and not receive damages. Meanwhile he could feed to recover the blood he has to spent for physical intensity. He should go for ride the wave anyway.
      So the attack/damage pool should be: 8 (strength) + 4 (brwl) + 3 (BP) + 4 (Physical Intensity) + 4 (Proteiform) = 23 dice. On a 5+ successes on the grappling roll he can act in the same turn recovering 3 vitae.
      If you want you can also give him obfuscate 3 instead of celerity, to make a perfect surprise attack, but with this he will arrive at 19 px in disciplines.

      V2:
      Strh 4 dex 2 stam 3
      Vigor 2; res 2; Obfuscate 3; BP 2 (Maybe a silver weapon?)

      V3:
      Strh 2 dex 3 stam 2
      Prot 3; Anim 4; BP 3

      He is supposed to go in crow/howl form, spilling his blood unnoticed, activating Animalism 4 to make everyone go crazy. He will also have summoned an army of beasts from the forest to let them attack the werewolves. After the other Vamps will arrive in the fight.

      V4:
      Strh 3 dex 3 stm 3
      Res 2 Cel 2 Nightmare 2/4 (nightmare 4 it's just so cool. Let the dark trees seem to move and bend on the vikings. Just to create the atmosphere :P) BP 2

      His task would be to fear the Wolf blooded or one of the werewolves (the most dangerous in fight; I guess they would have follow them for a while studying the enemy). At this point the wolf blooded could have been captured by the ghouls/cultist hided on the way though he is fleeing.

      V5: Strh 4 dex 3 stm 3
      Vig 3 Cel 2 Obfuscate 3 (Maybe silver weapon?) BP 3

      So, According to me there are much better ways to kidnap the wolf blooded but, since it seems to me you want a big fight, here some suggest:

      1. V3 would fly over the viking camp as a crow, spilling his blood. The vikings will start to kill each other. At this point he will command all the animals (bears, wolves and swarms) to attack the werewolves. (You can use swarm rules but it's hard to take in account even bears and wolves....but I believe they would deal a lot of hurt). Maybe the werewolves could be in another place at the beginning, otherwise they would be affected by the same power, killing themselves each other. (They can roll Resolve + composure - vampire successes (in my example the average successes have been 4/5 on a pool of 12, so usually a die or chance die. They can spend a willpower to not follow the command of the vamp but no command has to be issued, they just need to attack everyone there around so they can't avoid this). The riot in the camp could, then, attract the werewolves with the Wolf - Blooded.

      2. At this point, V1, as a Bear and riding the wave, will ambush the warrior werewolf (24 dice) trying to grapple him and biting him in the first turn feeding up. Every turn he will use 3 vitae (6 dice) to boost strength to keep the control (so 26 dice). The aim would be to resist 3 turns waiting the warrior to exit the Guru form to kill him quite easily without his crazy regenerating factor. The werewolf could decide to stay a turn more risking basu im... in this case, the vamp could fly away letting the crazy werewolf kills his own mates.

      3. V4, after creating the atmosphere :P, would fear the wolf blooded and/or a werewolf. With celerity 2 he can easily take the distances in case of danger.

      4. V5 and V2 would fight obfuscated (note that no one can see him while fight, just the one with whom he is directly interacting). Could also go to give the final blow, with their silver weapons, to the warrior engaged in combat with V1 (ambush full pool).

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      • #18
        Just to be clear; the plan is for the vamps to abduct a wolfblooded then have the pack track down and arrive in the middle of weird rite, with the WB as a sacrifice.


        So this shouldn't be about how the vamps win in a white room; it is how vamp cultists react to an 'expected' werewolf ambush instead?


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        • #19
          Notice: I will use WB as shorting for Wolf-Blooded.

          Some info about Uratha packs forces: There are circa 18 normal Vikings humans in camp ( they lost some people on previous session, with small battle with nearby tribes of Chazars ). They are also two small Uratha packs inside this group ( one PCs, one NPCs ) - with 7 Uratha and 2 Wolf-Blooded. So, all of Vikings are circa 27 people, with 9 werewolves in this group ( Uratha and Wolf-Blooded combined ).

          Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
          Just to be clear; the plan is for the vamps to abduct a wolfblooded then have the pack track down and arrive in the middle of weird rite, with the WB as a sacrifice.
          Vamps wants WB's Blood for themselves ( to develop what's in Ordo Dracul will be Coils ). Best would be Uratha's Blood, of course, but vamps are not stupid and want the second best thing before Uratha will get them.

          Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
          So this shouldn't be about how the vamps win in a white room; it is how vamp cultists react to an 'expected' werewolf ambush instead?
          It's rather vamps are kidnaping Wolf-Blooded and suspect retaliation from werewolves. So vamps needs to plan:
          1. How to kidnap one of WB and devour her ( it's women NPC ) before problems.
          2. How to defend against angry Uratha that surely will come for her ( even if things will probably be too late for her ).

          Expanding this: Logical would be for vamps to get powers that works as Coils of Wyrm after drinking Wolf-Blooded. So those Coils are logical to be used in stats for Kindred.
          Last edited by wyrdhamster; 08-11-2018, 01:56 AM.


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          • #20
            Warning: On our last night game our Blood Talons Rahu player get attack dicepool in Guaru form of 25 dices. He is most combat heavy character, rest have dicepools like 8-15, when they best try.

            Marcus, great powers and scenarios write-ups - however...

            Originally posted by Marcus View Post
            Considering that the Gauru form lasts 2/3 turns,
            Is simply not true. In Werewolf 2E rules on Gauru Form ( page 97 ) states:
            'She can take Gauru once per scene, and then only for a number of turns equal to her (Hishu / human form/) Stamina + Primal Urge. After that point, she must choose: Shift down into Dalu or Urshul, or fall into Kuruth. If she does not shift, roll Resolve + Composure as a reflexive action. If she succeeds, she has one more turn in Gauru, then must shift to Dalu or Urshul, and enters Wasu-Im. If she fails, she enters Basu-Im immediately.'

            So typical Stamina 2 starting Uratha have 4 turns of controlled Gauru: 2 from Stamina, 1 from Primal Urge and 1 free turn of actions on successful roll and forcing of Wasu-Im ( 'running away Rage' ). As PCs are vikings, typical Stamina is 3-4 for them, so everything is even longer in their group.

            And even after this limit, Uratha simply assume Basu-Im, Hard Rage, and start to kill. On Primal Urge 1-2 Basu-Im is 10 minutes, on PU 3 it's 15 minutes and on PU 4 it's 20 minutes. They will attack all persons at place, trying even most to convince rest of packmates to join them - but they will be machines of death. With Gauru form Regeneration ability, they only be put down by delivering Aggravated damage. Rules from Gauru form ( WtF 2E, p. 97 ):

            'Regeneration: Uratha in Gauru form regenerate all bashing and lethal damage each turn.'

            So vamps need to deliver as much Aggravted damage in 2-3 turns - or they will have madding dance of 7 raging werewolves that will kill everyone. Before this, some of them can stay down and lay low, if combat will be really not in favour of wolves. That's why Protean 1 'Unmarked Grave' is so great ability - when Uratha are starting to assume Gauru forms, vamps can simply 'disappear in the ground' and wait till their one chance on controlled Gauru on this scene ends.
            Last edited by wyrdhamster; 08-11-2018, 10:44 AM.


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            • #21
              How do the vampires know Gauru is a mindless monster and their best option is passivity?

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              • #22
                They have Occult Skill at 2+ dots each - they are proto Ordo Dracul group that studies Blood and inner magics of monsters. They also hunt for Uratha Blood for few decades now, even if that means 3 fights for all those years.

                Citing CoD Rulebook, page34 on Occult Skill:
                'The Occult Skill is a character’s knowledge of myth, folktales, and urban legends about the strange things that exist in the dark corners of the world. Occult can help a character separate fiction and myth from fact and determine which stories are likely to be actual supernatural events and which are just rumors. That said, there are a lot of strange things out there, and many of them defy easy categorization. The Occult Skill doesn’t necessarily give a character a line on the absolute “truth” about what’s going on, but instead represents an array of knowledge about encounters and theories that others have had, and the ability to build on those theories herself.'
                Last edited by wyrdhamster; 08-11-2018, 05:03 AM.


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                • #23
                  Alright, so they have first hand experience, no actual need for occult, except for the fact that during that period the knowledge of Uratha's bane isn't nearly as wide-spread.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Malus View Post
                    except for the fact that during that period the knowledge of Uratha's bane isn't nearly as wide-spread.
                    Isn't really? Bane of Silver is literally the first thing that show up in werewolf fictions and legends. Adding to the fact that Uratha ability to assume 'wolf-man monster form' ( i.e. Gauru ) is so central to their portray in universe of Chronicles of Darkness as that Kindred vampires are undead and drink blood - I would say that even Occult 1 characters understand that some werewolves can assume Gauru in rage ( even not knowing proper name ). Logically then Occult 2 characters can assume that Gauru is for limited time only ( not knowing proper times ) - and probably known about Bane of Silver of working at least on large portion of all werewolves ( i.e. the Uratha, that are only part of population of werewolves, like Kindred are only part of all vampires ).
                    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 08-11-2018, 05:40 AM.


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                      Warning: On our last night game our Blood Talons Rahu player get attack dicepool in Guaru form of 25 dices. He is most combat heavy character, rest have dicepools like 8-15, when they best try.
                      Yes I believe this, that's why I said that at low PX, werewolves are advantaged. From BP 5 the situation starts to over tip, but before, combatant werewolves are more than a threat in a pure combat.


                      Is simply not true. In Werewolf 2E rules on Gauru Form ( page 97 ) states:
                      'She can take Gauru once per scene, and then only for a number of turns equal to her (Hishu / human form/) Stamina + Primal Urge. After that point, she must choose: Shift down into Dalu or Urshul, or fall into Kuruth. If she does not shift, roll Resolve + Composure as a reflexive action. If she succeeds, she has one more turn in Gauru, then must shift to Dalu or Urshul, and enters Wasu-Im. If she fails, she enters Basu-Im immediately.'

                      So typical Stamina 2 starting Uratha have 4 turns of controlled Gauru: 2 from Stamina, 1 from Primal Urge and 1 free turn of actions on successful roll and forcing of Wasu-Im ( 'running away Rage' ). As PCs are vikings, typical Stamina is 3-4 for them, so everything is even longer in their group.
                      Sorry, my bad. I remembered they had to roll that pool while it's actually a fixed number of turn.

                      And even after this limit, Uratha simply assume Basu-Im, Hard Rage, and start to kill. On Primal Urge 1-2 Basu-Im is 10 minutes, on PU 3 it's 15min and on PU 4 it's 20 minutes. They will attack all persons at place, trying even most to convince rest of packmates to join them - but they will be machines of death. With Gauru form Regeneration ability, they only be put down by delivering Aggravated damage. Rules from Gauru form ( WtF 2E, p. 97 ):

                      'Regeneration: Uratha in Gauru form regenerate all bashing and lethal damage each turn.'
                      Yes, it's what I said. When I Basu-Im vamps can simply fly away, merge with earth, disappear, and let the ranging werewolves kills their own viking's mates. After the time has expired they will be back in Hishu so that they could give them the final blow.

                      So vamps need to deliver as much Aggravted damage in 2-3 turns - or they will have madding dance of 7 raging werewolves that will kill everyone. Before this, some of them can stay down and lay low, if combat will be really not in favour of wolves. That's why Protean 1 'Unmarked Grave' is so great ability - when Uratha are starting to assume Gauru forms, vamps can simply 'disappear in the ground' and wait till their one chance on controlled Gauru on this scene ends.
                      Yes, it's not an impossible task. Consider V1 with an ambush (obuscate). He could deal an average of 14 agg damages (with Vigor) in the first turn of grapple (on an exceptional success he could deal damage on the same turn). Furthermore consider the flock that can do 4 damages per turn and inflict him a -2 penalty. And other wolves/bears animals summoned with animalism. It's hard to modeling all this but it's a huge amount of damages.

                      Then consider that, one of the packmate (or more) may have been fled with Nightmare, and with animalism 4 the vikings could be easily redirected against the pack as well.

                      I think it's a very complicated situation even for the most skilled werewolf.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                        Isn't really? Bane of Silver is literally the first thing that show up in werewolf fictions and legends. Adding to the fact that Uratha ability to assume 'wolf-man monster form' ( i.e. Gauru ) is so central to their portray in universe of Chronicles of Darkness as that Kindred vampires are undead and drink blood - I would say that even Occult 1 characters understand that some werewolves can assume Gauru in rage ( even not knowing proper name ). Logically then Occult 2 characters can assume that Gauru is for limited time only ( not knowing proper times ) - and probably known about Bane of Silver of working at least on large portion of all werewolves ( i.e. the Uratha, that are only part of population of werewolves, like Kindred are only part of all vampires ).
                        That's true only in the modern age. Your game takes place in a world without mass means of communication. Hell. There's not even a printing press.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Malus View Post

                          That's true only in the modern age. Your game takes place in a world without mass means of communication. Hell. There's not even a printing press.
                          I'm not so sure about this. In the dark age here were a lot more superstition knowledge. Obviously today we know that it was just this: superstition, but in a dark world it could be instead folk wisdom and characters with occult 2 may be able to discern the truth. Otherwise academic and occult skills would become useles.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Malus View Post
                            That's true only in the modern age. Your game takes place in a world without mass means of communication. Hell. There's not even a printing press.
                            In Requiem For Rome they also do not have printing press ( as in Ancient Rome ) and there are still characters with Occult 4-5 even. Skills in CoD games represents what character knows or is able to do, not how she learn it. For the game systems how character got the knowledge is irrelevant - important is that she has it.

                            Also, we talk here about groups of vampires hunting by decades now on other monsters - they just easily can know it by (un)life experience.

                            Last edited by wyrdhamster; 08-11-2018, 07:41 AM.


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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                              I'm not so sure about this. In the dark age here were a lot more superstition knowledge. Obviously today we know that it was just this: superstition, but in a dark world it could be instead folk wisdom and characters with occult 2 may be able to discern the truth. Otherwise academic and occult skills would become useles.
                              If you actually knew something about werewolves in the setting you might know about silver. Otherwise there's no chance because silver as a weakness was invented in the 20th century. That's why it would be practically impossible to guess based on superstitions alone.


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                              • #30
                                Yes but again. So what Ocult stands for? In a way or in another theybare supposed to know something about occult. Maybe with a roll int+occult with some penalty to see if they actually have that specific knowledge

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