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[2E] Kindred fighting Uratha werewolves

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Malus View Post
    See, here's the thing: you sever a werewolf's extremity or what have you, you end up with a human extremity, or what have you. Unfit to be consigned metamorphoses-worthy, unless you somehow devise some way to give that thing a constant and ludicrous flow of essence. Lune essence.
    That´s not how it works. Grafting Unholy Flesh only requires the Dragon to know about the ability in question (in this case shapeshifting) and to transplant a body part which is symbolic of the desired ability. There is no need for the grafted body part to be infused with Lune Essence or whatever to grant the Dragon the shapeshifting-power. Unless there has been some official errata on that scale which states otherwise, of course.

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    • #47
      Alright, gimme one human appendage that's symbolic of the Killing Form.

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      • #48
        You know that specific rules counter general rules right?

        A human appendage is not a symbol for the Urathas' Killing Form, no. But a alchemically and magically enhanced pseudo-scientific method of preserving a supernatural ability through the use off occult laws powered by stolen life force makes it so that the former body part that has symbolic resonance and sympathetic ties to the Uratah is is valid in the conservation of that ability in particular.

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        • #49
          That´s up to interpretation, but using the skin of a skinchanger should usually be enough to symbolically represent his shapeshifting ability, or his scalp or maybe even his heart - depends on the werewolf-legends the Dragon bases his assumptions about the werewolf´s seat of power on. And why just the "Killing Form"? The Scale should grant the Vampire access to the full shapeshifting ability, not just one specific form.

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          • #50
            Well I think it would be a ST call if one specific form is considered one ability or if the shape-shifting itself is considered one ability. Myself would go with the former, but mostly as a balance thing, but also a 'don't mix powers between stats however one likes' kind a view on it.

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            • #51
              Is severed limbs turning human still a thing in second edition? I distinctly remember reading that all five forms are the Urathas' true forms, implying they don't default back to hishu.


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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              • #52
                In that niche case I think it's irrelevant. The werewolf can't regenerate the missing part until the original is removed or destroyed and it doesn't rot naurally while in use.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                  Is severed limbs turning human still a thing in second edition? I distinctly remember reading that all five forms are the Urathas' true forms, implying they don't default back to hishu.
                  Stuff return back to Hishu cuz otherwise it'd be a blatant Oath violation. Uratha were engineered: Luna's crazy, not stupid. And, while all forms are theirs and natural, Uratha are born, and die, in one form: Hishu.

                  Originally posted by Poseur View Post
                  You know that specific rules counter general rules right?

                  A human appendage is not a symbol for the Urathas' Killing Form, no. But a alchemically and magically enhanced pseudo-scientific method of preserving a supernatural ability through the use off occult laws powered by stolen life force makes it so that the former body part that has symbolic resonance and sympathetic ties to the Uratah is is valid in the conservation of that ability in particular.
                  Symbolism, by the scale's own language, matters. Period. Sure, in your table you can roll a few dice, don't worry about the specifics, but I wouldn't let that fly on mine. You wanna steal another's splat's birth-right? it's gonna take more than rolling some dice.

                  Originally posted by Sethnacht View Post
                  That´s up to interpretation, but using the skin of a skinchanger should usually be enough to symbolically represent his shapeshifting ability, or his scalp or maybe even his heart - depends on the werewolf-legends the Dragon bases his assumptions about the werewolf´s seat of power on. And why just the "Killing Form"? The Scale should grant the Vampire access to the full shapeshifting ability, not just one specific form.
                  You want to try to skin an Uratha completely? Death Rage is more than likely to ensue. You want to try and grasp all that skin into yourself like some undead flesh Tony Stark suit? you better have a Vicky. Skin falls off the Uratha, without access to their natural essence, their brands of renown or a connection to their spiritual harmony? it's human skin.
                  Last edited by Malus; 10-03-2018, 09:43 AM.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Malus View Post


                    Symbolism, by the scale's own language, matters. Period. Sure, in your table you can roll a few dice, don't worry about the specifics, but I wouldn't let that fly on mine. You wanna steal another's splat's birth-right? it's gonna take more than rolling some dice.
                    Please point out where I'd said symbolism where not important and where I'd let people do this with only "rolling some dice"? If you could please stop drawing straw man arguments and similar fallacies about what I've said and stop assuming my play style and in the same sentence trying to belittle it I would be thankful.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Malus View Post
                      Symbolism, by the scale's own language, matters. Period. Sure, in your table you can roll a few dice, don't worry about the specifics, but I wouldn't let that fly on mine. You wanna steal another's splat's birth-right? it's gonna take more than rolling some dice.
                      What is your point? Nobody advocated for handwaving the scale through without finding the symbolic connection to the power in question. The thing is: RAW the Scale allows to steal a Werewolf´s shapeshifting power - what exactly constitutes a sufficient symbolic representation is up to the individual storyteller/group. Could be Skin, could be the heart, could be a patch of fur. Whatever works best for the chronicle.



                      Originally posted by Malus View Post
                      You want to try to skin an Uratha completely? Death Rage is more than likely to ensue. You want to try and grasp all that skin into yourself like some undead flesh Tony Stark suit? you better have a Vicky. Skin falls off the Uratha, without access to their natural essence, their brands of renown or a connection to their spiritual harmony? it's human skin.
                      Essence and spiritual resonance doesn´t matter. The Ritual and the Wyrm´s Nest fuel the power of the Scale, not the Werewolf or the body part´s remaining essence - it is only needed as the symbolic representation.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Malus View Post
                        Stuff return back to Hishu cuz otherwise it'd be a blatant Oath violation.
                        Isn't that was Lunacy is supposed to help with? Also, having a pack that can clean up afterwards?

                        Originally posted by Malus View Post
                        Uratha were engineered: Luna's crazy, not stupid. And, while all forms are theirs and natural, Uratha are born, and die, in one form: Hishu.
                        "Though it may take a while to get used to, a werewolf’s human form is only a “default” in that it provides the best camouflage among humans."
                        WTF 2e, page 96
                        Your ruling is not a bad ruling if it were to come up in your game, but afaik it's just a house rule so I wouldn't present it as a fact in a discussion not about your game.


                        Bloodline: The Stygians
                        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                        • #57
                          This all basically reads similarly to the way the complaints against werewolves being able to deal lethal damage to vampires by default did back when 2E was released, but reversed.

                          House rules are fine, but at the end of the day, there's nothing in RAW demanding that severed body parts revert, and the Scale as written works on Uratha just like it does any other splat.

                          You can certainly add other requirements (Lune Essence, etc) or rule that the limbs revert in your own games.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                            Isn't that was Lunacy is supposed to help with? Also, having a pack that can clean up afterwards?
                            Lunacy isn't infallible, that's the whole point of the Oath. And Luna wouldn't relegate the survival of Her Progeny to Mortal error.

                            Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                            "Though it may take a while to get used to, a werewolf’s human form is only a “default” in that it provides the best camouflage among humans."
                            WTF 2e, page 96
                            Your ruling is not a bad ruling if it were to come up in your game, but afaik it's just a house rule so I wouldn't present it as a fact in a discussion not about your game.
                            Do point it out exactly where in the book it explicitly says a dead Gauru remains in that form.

                            As has been noted by developers previously: where the new books don't afford a distinction, the previous edition rules apply: in this case, Uratha revert to hishu if killed, or their appendages become severed.

                            Originally posted by Sethnacht View Post
                            What is your point? Nobody advocated for handwaving the scale through without finding the symbolic connection to the power in question. The thing is: RAW the Scale allows to steal a Werewolf´s shapeshifting power - what exactly constitutes a sufficient symbolic representation is up to the individual storyteller/group. Could be Skin, could be the heart, could be a patch of fur. Whatever works best for the chronicle.
                            Hah! no. Read below.

                            Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
                            This all basically reads similarly to the way the complaints against werewolves being able to deal lethal damage to vampires by default did back when 2E was released, but reversed.

                            House rules are fine, but at the end of the day, there's nothing in RAW demanding that severed body parts revert, and the Scale as written works on Uratha just like it does any other splat.

                            You can certainly add other requirements (Lune Essence, etc) or rule that the limbs revert in your own games.
                            The Scale specifically notes dotted powers. Uratha regeneration or shapeshifting come with no such things. Ergo that's beyond the scale's purview.

                            Tells do come with their dotted form: 3 dots each. Have fun hunting Uratha peripheries for the odd shapeshifting prowess or limited regeneration, and being hunted by them in return.
                            Last edited by Malus; 10-04-2018, 06:36 AM.

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                            • #59
                              Acrozatarim I'd much appreciate your input.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Malus View Post


                                Hah! no. Read below.



                                The Scale specifically notes dotted powers. Uratha regeneration or shapeshifting come with no such things. Ergo that's beyond the scale's purview.

                                Tells do come with their dotted form: 3 dots each. Have fun hunting Uratha peripheries for the odd shapeshifting prowess or limited regeneration, and being hunted by them in return.
                                Well this is simply wrong. Nowhere in the Scale does it say that a 'dotted power´ is a prerequisite for it to work. It clearly states "a supernatural ability possessed by the
                                subject" and "a body part symbolic of that skill".

                                This can only be done with knowledge about said power, knowledge about a specific Coil and Scale, in a Wyrm's Nest, and all costs the power has is payed by "Any costs aside from Vitae and Willpower costs must be paid with both one Vitae and Willpower per point of its normal cost." This is for any power, be it a werewolf, vampire, changeling or other splats power. It is possible to do this by RAW.

                                However.
                                No one is arguing of how impractical this is except you. I'm pretty confident that all of us in this discussion don't think that stealing a werewolves powers is something easily done, but we are merly discussing that it is possible, not how probable it is. Could it be done by RAW, yes. Would it be a walk in the park to pull this off? Hell no!



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