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  • Hunger in Requiem?

    Does anyone have any thoughts on how they would implement something like Hunger from V5 in Requiem 2e? Just curious!

  • #2
    Originally posted by VioletDreamer View Post
    Does anyone have any thoughts on how they would implement something like Hunger from V5 in Requiem 2e? Just curious!
    Can you give a summary, for those unfamiliar?


    Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
    Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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    • #3
      I think the Hunger dice system was a modified version of Danse Macabre's Atrocity Dice, so you would just use that with some new compulsions.

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      • #4
        Atrocity Dice replace Humanity instead of blood pools... so I'm not sure how well that works.

        I would personally do something closer to Beast's Satiety system, where Hunger is a series of linked Conditions that go up and down as you feed/spend vitae. It keeps the simplicity of points for powers and healing and all that instead of rousing, while allowing how hungry you are to matter more directly.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Vent0 View Post

          Can you give a summary, for those unfamiliar?
          Sure!

          with Hunger, Vampires don't have a Vitae pool, but a Hunger score rated from 0 to 5. 0 is fully sated while 5 is ravenous. When vampires do things which would cost Vitae, they instead make a Rousing the Blood check, where you roll a single die. (Mind, V5 has a Target Number of 6, so a 6 or higher is a success!) If you succeed, your Hunger score remains unchanged. If you fail, it increases by 1. When your Hunger reaches 5 and you become ravenous, you can't willfully Rouse the Blood to access your powers (kind of like imagining you have no Vitae in your pool!), but if an outside effect makes you do it, you have to roll to resist Frenzy.

          Having Hunger does this stuff where you replace dice in your pool with special Hunger Dice, which have special effects when they interact with dice pools, which become more likely to occur as your Hunger rises. They generally cause additional complications for you, like giving you "messy criticals" where you accomplish your goal but do so in an over the top/bestial/violent/whatever way reflecting your hunger, or you suffer compulsions that make you act vampiric and weird.

          There are some complications for trying to port this over straight to Requiem, stuff like the TN for all dice rolls being TN8 instead of TN6 makes Rouse Checks pretty different and will make it so you become very hungry very quick! There isn't really a clean way to integrate Hunger Dice into the game either, etc.

          My personal opinion that prompted me to write this is that I really like the idea of Hunger itself, I'm personally not too keen on Compulsions as they're written in V5 and on Hunger Dice, so I think alternative systems would need to be devised for how to reflect the consequences of increasing Hunger on Kindred in Requiem. Conditions seem like a natural place for this in the system!

          What I'm thinking about too is how to do Rouse Checks. One way to do it could be to just use TN6 for them alone, but that feels kind of ugly and inelegant. Another way that just occurred to me is that it could be that instead of becoming more Hungry if you fail the Rouse Check, it could be that you become more Hungry if it succeeds instead. With TN8 it would mean that you'd be way less likely to get hungry though, which might be like, a bit of a problem.

          Any ideas are appreciated!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by VioletDreamer View Post

            Sure!

            with Hunger, Vampires don't have a Vitae pool, but a Hunger score rated from 0 to 5. 0 is fully sated while 5 is ravenous. When vampires do things which would cost Vitae, they instead make a Rousing the Blood check, where you roll a single die. (Mind, V5 has a Target Number of 6, so a 6 or higher is a success!) If you succeed, your Hunger score remains unchanged. If you fail, it increases by 1. When your Hunger reaches 5 and you become ravenous, you can't willfully Rouse the Blood to access your powers (kind of like imagining you have no Vitae in your pool!), but if an outside effect makes you do it, you have to roll to resist Frenzy.

            Having Hunger does this stuff where you replace dice in your pool with special Hunger Dice, which have special effects when they interact with dice pools, which become more likely to occur as your Hunger rises. They generally cause additional complications for you, like giving you "messy criticals" where you accomplish your goal but do so in an over the top/bestial/violent/whatever way reflecting your hunger, or you suffer compulsions that make you act vampiric and weird.

            There are some complications for trying to port this over straight to Requiem, stuff like the TN for all dice rolls being TN8 instead of TN6 makes Rouse Checks pretty different and will make it so you become very hungry very quick! There isn't really a clean way to integrate Hunger Dice into the game either, etc.

            My personal opinion that prompted me to write this is that I really like the idea of Hunger itself, I'm personally not too keen on Compulsions as they're written in V5 and on Hunger Dice, so I think alternative systems would need to be devised for how to reflect the consequences of increasing Hunger on Kindred in Requiem. Conditions seem like a natural place for this in the system!

            What I'm thinking about too is how to do Rouse Checks. One way to do it could be to just use TN6 for them alone, but that feels kind of ugly and inelegant. Another way that just occurred to me is that it could be that instead of becoming more Hungry if you fail the Rouse Check, it could be that you become more Hungry if it succeeds instead. With TN8 it would mean that you'd be way less likely to get hungry though, which might be like, a bit of a problem.

            Any ideas are appreciated!
            Conditions are definitely the way to go in Chronicles. You could tie in the various passive effects on Hunger to different Conditions. As for influencing other dice pools, look at the Tainted and Madness Conditions (which give the ST a pool of dice to affect choice rolls). As for the issue with the target number, maybe you could have "Hunger Checks" roll a dice pool and have the equalent Vitae used or current Hunger level/Condition apply a penalty. And/or subsequent checks would apply a cumulative -1. Failure switches to a "hungrier" Condition. Dramatic Failure triggers Frenzy (making it possible, if unlikely, to get a Frenzy even when fully Sated, provided enough modifiers are piled on).


            Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
            Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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            • #7
              I would simply do Beasts Satiety matter, with tied Conditions, only leaving Humanity as other trait in place.


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              • #8
                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                I would simply do Beasts Satiety matter, with tied Conditions, only leaving Humanity as other trait in place.
                It looks like this doesn't just replace Vitae, but also has tie-on effects. Actually, it looks like it could replace Humanity's role in social modifiers and Banes.


                Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

                Comment


                • #9
                  The biggest tie-on effects from the Hunger dice in V5 is how they interact with Frenzies, and essentially cause three different forms of mini-Frenzies.

                  This is why the BtP model works fairly well. The more hungry the Condition the more potent/frequent those effects can become, though probably best tied to some sort of bonuses.

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                  • #10
                    Personally, I didn't like the idea of Hunger that much when I read it. It doesn't reduce bookkeeping, actually adds more dice to keep track of, and you lose granularity in power costs. With blood points it's easy to balance things by saying "Ok, this costs X, Y or Z" points, but with Hunger it is a lot more difficult to balance with such a "blood cost". Even if you say that powerful effects make you roll more dice, that makes the costs of powers a lot more swingy (can be high, can be low, can have to pay nothing at all even fi you spam it for an entire scene), which I also don't like.

                    So yeah, not a fan myself. :P

                    It's like one of those "Let's cut down on bookkeeping and number bloat, and make it more narrative and evocative!" trends that is sweeping through P&P games these days (which I love!) but which doesn't actually succeed at doing anything of the sort.
                    Last edited by Unahim; 08-12-2018, 05:00 PM.

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                    • #11
                      I can appreciate that point of view! I think I just like the potential perspective it offers over tracking points of Vitae.

                      Either way the premise with which I made this thread was to try to consider methods of facilitating the idea rather than debating its merits, so I would really appreciate it if we stick to that!

                      I'm interested in hearing more about the Satiety Conditions, what kinds of benefits or drawbacks do they offer for the various stages?

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                      • #12
                        Satiety Conditions mostly don't have an effect in-and-of themselves, but they tie into Beast's mechanics a lot. At the lowest level, your Horror goes on dream rampages to feed itself. Above that, and your Atavisms are stronger. At the middle, you are vulnerable to Anathema. Near the top, Nightmares are stronger. At the peak, your Horror goes into a food coma and the Beast becomes near mortal.

                        Regarding Hunger-as-Conditions, even though it might be treated as a linear track, it doesn't technically need numbers (though that eliminates range within the Conditions). You can load various "vampire" traits onto the Conditions themselves (or makes those traits tied to possessing such Conditions, if you wanted to be able to apply the Conditions to non-vampires, like Ghouls), such as social penalties, Banes (vampires might be able to daywalk, limitedly, when fully fed, for instance), or the upper reaches of their powers.

                        Have you seen the Lost Boys from Hurt Locker? Specifically how they get more powerful when they get "low" (before they go into full withdrawal, of course).
                        Last edited by Vent0; 08-12-2018, 07:07 PM.


                        Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                        Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                          Satiety Conditions mostly don't have an effect in-and-of themselves, but they tie into Beast's mechanics a lot. At the lowest level, your Horror goes on dream rampages to feed itself. Above that, and your Atavisms are stronger. At the middle, you are vulnerable to Anathema. Near the top, Nightmares are stronger. At the peak, your Horror goes into a food coma and the Beast becomes near mortal.
                          To unpack that a bit since it sounds like VioletDreamer isn't familiar with Beast.

                          The Horror is a Beast "true self" the monster soul inside their human body, so is comparable to a vampire's inner beast. However Beasts feed their Horror's through inflicting shock and negative emotions (Horrors are beings that exist in the realm of dreams) rather than physical feeding; though Beasts have specific Hunger (one of their splats) they need to fulfill. An important consideration is that meals have a rating in how unique they are and effort it takes to obtain them. Stealing someone's watch isn't the same as an elaborate break in past impressive security to take someone's watch that's been in their family for generations and even though has little monetary value, is exceedingly important to them. The more refined the meal, the more filling it is. Feeding is rolled though, so you never know exactly how much you get when you feed.

                          Beasts have two forms of default powers. Atavisms are powers that represent the growing influence of the Horror on the Beast's physical form, providing constant benefits. Nightmares are how Beasts use their connections to dreams, allowing them to incite the feelings of fear and terror from primal dreams such as the disorientation of the feeling of falling to your death.

                          Anathema are weaknesses Beasts acquire when being pursued by their enemies: Heroes. Unlike most supernaturals, Beasts don't come with default weaknesses to specific things (vampires and fire/sun, werewolves and silver, etc) but instead they are worked into their narrative, part of Beast's explorations of subverting the monomyth.

                          There isn't an objectively "good" or "bad" level of Satiety Condition. Each offers different pros and cons; at least for the character to decide how they like to do things. Ravenous and Slumbering aren't great for players to stay in for long, but NPCs might like them just fine.

                          Ravenous - No Satiety - turns the Beast into a monster obsessed solely on trying to sate their hunger. They can only spend and gain WP in pursuit of it, not feeding slowly kills them, and they can only snap out of this state with a highly rated meal; light snacks only help them keep going as is. Though as noted above, their Horrors will also go looking for food on their own in the dreams of others (this happens when Beasts don't successfully feed often enough regardless of Satiety levels, sitting at high Satiety and trying to not feed doesn't work for them, the Horror wants to eat).

                          Starving - Low Satiety - keeps the Beast on edge. In this state, they have more raw power represented by their Atavisms getting boosts and boosts to their stats while not in the physical world (though it's harder for them to get there on their own). This comes with the cost of lacking in much Satiety to burn before going Ravenous.

                          Sated - Medium Satiety - This is the medium state, it's only benefit is that has a decent store of Satiety to spend, and it is easy to go up or down one as needed. However as noted, you're weaker to Heroes, especially with inflicting Anathema on you. Low feedings don't do you any good.

                          Gorged - High Satiety - The well fed Horror leaves the human side more free to pursue other things, making them better at exploring non-physical worlds, and increasing the power of their Nightmares. However they lose some of their protections against social/mental supernatural powers as their Horror stops fighting for control in it's state. Low and medium feedings don't do you any good.

                          Slumbering - Max Satiety - The Beast becomes practically a normal person, losing all their powers (including things like Merits that require being a Beast/supernatural to have) save for a few. They can't spend Satiety, or use things that require them to even if it's on the list of few powers they have left. Their Horror even stops going rampaging around if the Beast doesn't feed regularly. Waking the Beast up actually takes significant work, and is dangerous.

                          Obviously it's not a direct map to what Hunger does in V5, but you can see how it's more evocative than just a "gas meter." There's a bunch of feeding strategies Beasts can employ, which help make different playstyles interesting. Instead of V5's focus on keeping yourself full, Beast focuses on how you want to manage feeding. Do you want to keep your character powerful at Starving (even starting level characters can be extremely potent if they do this) through Atavisms and easy feeding at the risk of very few Satiety expenditures before you're Ravenous, or a "lucky" feeding weakening you into Sated? Do you sit in Sated, ready to spend down to Starving or fed up to Gorged for maximum flexibility, but risk being your weakest against Heroes if you're caught off-guard and having a bit of trouble with feeding as your Lair grows? Do you sit at Gorged to more easily manipulate humans and explore the supernatural world, but risk Slumbering? Etc.

                          Since normal feeding is never, "I drain two Satiety from knocking a guy on his ass to embarrass him in front of his date," it's always a risk despite being tracked with specific points. Though as you can probably tell, you could replace points with Rouses if you wanted to to add more uncertainty.

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                          • #14
                            Thinking in on the Vitea-like-Satiety idea, and I thin you could mirror Beasts Atavisms and Nightmares mechanics. You could simply take the route of making Disciplines working like Atavisms ( i.e. 'instinct powers' ) and special Covenants powers / like Oaths, Theban Sorcery, Cruac, Coils, etc. / to work like Nightmares ( i.e. 'rational powers' ). More you are Sated, more easily is to use 'rational powers' and difficult to use 'instinct' ones.
                            Last edited by wyrdhamster; 08-13-2018, 09:09 AM.


                            LGBT+ in CoD games
                            Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
                            Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
                            Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
                            My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                              Thinking in on the Vitea-like-Satiety idea, and I thin you could mirror Beasts Atavisms and Nightmares mechanics. You could simply take the route of making Disciplines working like Atavisms ( i.e. 'instinct powers' ) and special Covenants powers / like Oaths, Theban Sorcery, Cruac, Coils, etc. / to work like Nightmares ( i.e. 'rational powers' ). More you are Sated, more easily is to use 'rational powers' and difficult to use 'instinct' ones.
                              You could, though that only works (easily) for Theban and Cruac, since Coils, Oaths, and Laws are bit more persistent and don't involve as many/any dice rolls for the different levels to affect.


                              Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                              Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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