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  • #31
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    If it's truly referencing the Julii then the entire story is complete bullshit since vampires with Clans predated the Julii by at least a millennium.
    Julii Clan was started when Remus became vampire, yes? I'm not sure on Requiem canon as read only corebook.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 11-29-2018, 11:17 AM.


    My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
    LGBT+ in CoD games

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Tessie View Post
      If it's truly referencing the Julii then the entire story is complete bullshit since vampires with Clans predated the Julii by at least a millennium.
      Well, the story seems to be specific to the Julii. It's oddly written in that it starts by saying all vampires were without a beast, but immediately shifts to just talking about the Founders.

      You could maybe infer that the Strix specifically fixed some kind of flaw in the Julii?

      (Also, reading the section a bit more, it specifically mentions Rome.)


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      • #33
        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
        Julii Clan was started when Remus became vampire, yes? I'm not sure on Requiem canon as read only corebook.
        Maybe. He's kinda a quasi-mythical figure. Remus is claimed to be the sire of Senex, the actual founder of the Camarilla who himself disappeared into Torpor in like 300BCE, and Remus disappeared at least a century before that. All the stories are written as more or less in-character myths and histories., so whether there was actually a vampire called Remus, and whether he was actually the legendary brother of the founder Romulus are open questions.

        There's also some terminological issues which might also have confused any later writer. Remus is claimed to be the first 'Kindred' (or a Latin equivalent), though not the first vampire. Also, the RfR era terminology for vampire is itself 'Strix'... so what exactly it would mean for Remus to make a bargain with the 'Strix' is not totally clear.

        However, there is one section I've found that is written out of character:

        Indeed, one [Strix] spoke to Remus himself as he lay dying; not bargaining with him, as the legends of the Kindred state, but soothing him as he died, knowing well that it was about to seize control of his body.
        Take that as you will. I'm not sure if it means 'control' figuratively, or if it means he was literally possessed by the Strix.


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        • #34
          Yeah, Remus irl was pretty much mythical and among vampires he was the same. The Julii used the term "Kindred" (propinqvus) to refer only to their clan: other vampires were lesser creatures, and no Kindred of the great Founders.

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          • #35
            The subject can be further messed up by questions on what defines one as a vampire. Would a larva, that is basically a bestial, ever hungry zombie count as one? Would then all zombie-esque monsters through the ages count as larvae?

            How about mummies? Were not the original Hollow Mekhet actually egyptian mummies messed up with?

            At what stage does an undead monster count as "kindred" or a vampire clan/bloodline instead of a sort of Wicked Dead knock-off? The Kiangshi in their 2nd ed iteration can be considered to straddle both sides of the fence, if not to outright sit upon it, based upon the books themselves.

            Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post
            I also like the write up in the Night Horrors - The Wicked Dead book, where it is implied that before we had the Kindred as we know them now, we had a sort of proto-vampires without an inner Beast, and the Strix gave them that Beast. What confuses me is that these proto-vampires are called the Founders. The Julii were also called the Founders, but the Julii did not even exist as a clan until Remus was turned into a vampire by a Strix. Yet the Wicked Dead story makes it sound like the Founders were already a clan of proto-vampires before they first interacted with the Strix.

            So is it just me or are these 2 stories contradictory to one another?
            Depends - would you say the crew of the Mayflower and the Conquistadores under Cortés, founders of their nations, are one and the same?
            Words can inform, but also mislead, context, evidence and knowledge are key.

            As an aside, are not the trojan ancestor-spirits mentioned in the Ventrue clanbook's version of Aeneid also called Founders at least once in the text?
            It's something to look out for, i guess.

            Not to mention some references to Gorgons, that might or not relate to the bloodline(s) of the same name - who could all too easily tie-in to a non-biblical version of the "Sons (Daughters) of the Serpent" legendry from Mythologies, might be said.
            Last edited by Baaldam; 02-08-2019, 12:19 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
              As an aside, are not the trojan ancestor-spirits mentioned in the Ventrue clanbook's version of Aeneid also called Founders at least once in the text?
              It's something to look out for, i guess.
              I did a search of the pdf and 'founder' isn't present in the text.


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              • #37
                Originally posted by Michael View Post

                I did a search of the pdf and 'founder' isn't present in the text.
                Ok, it was more than a year since i last read that part anyway, i think.
                Good to know it was just memory playing tricks on me. Thanks.

                And the references about the Gorgons in the fragments of the Aeneid that appear in the Clanbook, are they there or not, can you say?
                Would like to know if i got at least that one bit right.

                All of that said, the part about "Founders" as a title being no indicator of Julii reference, because it's a pretty common - and logical - descriptor for a writer to reference its ancestors in any form of origin tale still stands and is what matters most, i guess.
                Last edited by Baaldam; 02-08-2019, 08:01 AM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                  Actually, Half Damned claims the opposite- yeah, it sounds weird, and it is only a legend in setting, but it is something to consider that perhaps Revenants are not the origin of vampirism, but a true failure at spreading the Curse to others.
                  And at least one canon group to claim the Revenants came first.

                  Came across this again by chance and decided to post as still relevant to the topic.
                  Last edited by Baaldam; 02-16-2019, 09:25 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                    Depends - would you say the crew of the Mayflower and the Conquistadores under Cortés, founders of their nations, are one and the same?
                    Words can inform, but also mislead, context, evidence and knowledge are key.
                    I consider the crew of the Mayflower latecomers.They arrived in 1620 thirteen years after the first permanent English settlement was founded at Jamestown in Virginia in 1607. Latecomers didn't found squat.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by zee PaTrick View Post
                      I consider the crew of the Mayflower atecomers.They arrived in 1620 thirteen years after the first permanent English settlement was founded at Jamestown in Virginia in 1607. Latecomers didn't found squat.

                      Sorry, american history is not my strong suite - always had the impression the Mayflower crew were the original settlers of the english colonization of North America. My bad.

                      But i guess you get my idea.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by zee PaTrick View Post
                        I consider the crew of the Mayflower latecomers.They arrived in 1620 thirteen years after the first permanent English settlement was founded at Jamestown in Virginia in 1607. Latecomers didn't found squat.
                        Go further back. The first permanent settlement was in St. Augustine, Florida in 1565. Manteo and Wanchese are also alleged to have met Spanish speaking settlers south of Roanoke Island several years before Raleigh arrived.

                        And no. If you’re talking about the first documented permanent European settlement in the entirety of North America, that’s Santo Domingo in 1496. But archaeological evidence indicates that Norway and Denmark had settlements in Greenland and Canada before 1450 if carbon dating is to be believed.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by tsusasi View Post
                          Go further back. The first permanent settlement was in St. Augustine, Florida in 1565. Manteo and Wanchese are also alleged to have met Spanish speaking settlers south of Roanoke Island several years before Raleigh arrived.

                          And no. If you’re talking about the first documented permanent European settlement in the entirety of North America, that’s Santo Domingo in 1496. But archaeological evidence indicates that Norway and Denmark had settlements in Greenland and Canada before 1450 if carbon dating is to be believed.
                          And yet none of that disproves Jamestown as the first permanent English settlement. Not Spanish. Not European. Not anything else but English refuting Baaldam's claim about the crew of the Mayflower.

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                          • #43
                            You know, my point was never if the Mayflower were the first or not - it was just a quick example along with Cortes for something of a mundane parallel - of how the term "Founders" can be used by a number of different groups of unrelated societies, locations and eras.

                            And by association, how the same can be quite true to kindred texts and societies and consequently trying to correlate the term to the Jullii in particular on principle is utterly missleading follly. That was my actual claim.

                            Felt like it was relevant to point out that you people are splitting a lot of hairs about what is a secondary detail, at best.
                            Last edited by Baaldam; 02-17-2019, 12:34 AM.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                              And at least http://theonyxpath.com/lonely-together/"]one canon group[/URL] to claim the Revenants came first.

                              Came across this again by chance and decided to post as still relevant to the topic.
                              Which makes sense when you remember that modern Kindred are pretty much canonically the product of convergent evolution and all of their origin stories are told by unreliable narrators.

                              It’s likely that there is a seed of truth to the story that a roving clan of revenants existed in the cradle of civilization and evolved into the first Neglatu. And it makes sense for the elder Neglatu to believe that these were the first vampires. It’s even possible that these may have been the first group of blood-drinking undead creatures to become something we would recognize as Kindred.

                              That’s an appealing idea, wouldn’t you say? That Revenants are the mechanism by which the various strains of ancient vampire converged into the Clans we see today? When you’ve got serrated tentacle creatures that drink the blood of prehuman primates and primordial blood puddles that mimic human form and vaporous shadow birds that possess human corpses and whatever other things you might reasonably describe as vampires, all trying and failing to pass on their state of being in various ways. When these failed progeny start to huddle together in dark corners while they all wait for the sun to set. When they find that they can share blood between each other to better manage their insatiable need for blood. When they discover that by banding together they can overwhelm their creators and drain them of blood. When they find that doing so makes them stronger. Maybe that’s where you get the various types of Porto-Kindred vampire blood breath and souls all mingling together in the same flesh that becomes the first true Kindred.

                              Only problem is, it’s too clean and easy for Chronicles of Darkness.
                              Last edited by Charlaquin; 02-17-2019, 01:59 AM.


                              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                              • #45
                                Char, it's still my favorite 'scientific' explanation of vampirism. To my Ordo Dracul NPCs, Neglatu story about Revenants rising to self-consciousness is the equivalent of humans evolution theory in mortals society - it's still only a theory, as we cannot recreate all the specifics - but it's Ordo's scientific convention that it's true, as all the pieces seems to fit in. If there is some evidence that diverge from it - the researcher is pointed as 'he has some revolutionary/tragic ideas in his papers, we must peer review them'. Basically Neglatu story is dogma for scientific vampires. Whole Night Society is divided over vampirism creations myths - more secular interpretations favor Neglatu, those more religious look for God or Dark Mother.


                                My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                                LGBT+ in CoD games

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