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  • #46
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    To my Ordo Dracul NPCs, Neglatu story about Revenants rising to self-consciousness is the equivalent of humans evolution theory in mortals society - it's still only a theory, as we cannot recreate all the specifics (...) If there is some evidence that diverge from it - the researcher is pointed as 'he has some revolutionary/tragic ideas in his papers, we must peer review them'.
    I’m glad to hear you like my explaination but I have to stop you here because this is a huge pet peeve of mine as a science educator:

    That’s not what the word “theory” means in a scientific context. Now, I imagine in this case this is complicated by the fact that English isn’t your first language, but this is a common misconception among native English speakers as well, because scientists use the word “theory” differently than most people do in common speech. Human evolution is not called a theory because we can’t recreate all the specifics. It’s called a theory because it supported by all available evidence and can be used to make predictions that can be experimentally verified, and those experiments can be reliably reproduced. Here is a short list of other things that are theories:
    - Gravity
    - Cells
    - Germs
    - Molecules
    - Atoms
    - Plate techtonics

    Basically, something that scientists call a “theory,” most people would just call a “fact.” And I know it is not your intent to do this, but a lot of people try to use this quirk of scientific language to argue against scientifically proven facts that they don’t want to believe in, (i.e. “climate change isn’t proven, it’s just a theory!”) So I believe it’s important to be very careful not to perpetuate the misconception that “theory” means a good guess that we can’t 100% prove. A good guess we can’t 100% prove is called a hypothesis, the word theory is used to refer to things that are already proven, given the available evidence.

    So, I would rephrase what you put forth here: in your game, Revenants being the origin of Kindred is the prevailing hypothesis among scientifically-minded Ordo, and alternative hypotheses are generally viewed as radical, as you say. But there is not enough evidence available to falsify that hypothesis and form a working theory.


    Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
      So, I would rephrase what you put forth here: in your game, Revenants being the origin of Kindred is the prevailing hypothesis among scientifically-minded Ordo, and alternative hypotheses are generally viewed as radical, as you say. But there is not enough evidence available to falsify that hypothesis and form a working theory.
      I agree with the rest of your post, but I wouldn't necessarily apply it to the Ordo. I can definitely see members believing that they've definitively proven their theory and trying to actively disregard contrary evidence.

      I mean, history is full of prominent scientists wilfully disregarding evidence because for whatever reason they didn't like the result. The way around that is that they eventually die off, but that mechanism doesn't work so well when you have vampires who are more or less immortal.


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      • #48
        Good point.


        Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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        • #49
          (In fairness, the mechanism behind evolution is significantly better-understood than the mechanism behind gravity. But that's a nitpick that only the physicists care about.)

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Draconis View Post
            (In fairness, the mechanism behind evolution is significantly better-understood than the mechanism behind gravity. But that's a nitpick that only the physicists care about.)
            It’s also more complex than I framed it. Technically gravity is a law, relativity is a theory that explains it, and while it holds up to scrutiny in almost every situation, it doesn’t work on very, very small scale.


            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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            • #51
              I don't subscribe to the idea of Revenants, as we know them now, came first. I think Revenants and Larvae are solely the byproduct of a failed embrace, posthumous embrace, or the contamination of a drained corpse.

              However, I do subscribe to the idea of the original vampires not having a Clan or Beast, and the clanned, bestial vampires, the Kindred, as we know them, are the result of Strix meddling, giving the original clanless vampires their Clans and Beasts. This is based on the story I posted earlier, found in the 'Night Horrors - The Wicked Dead' book on page 116.

              Of course, in that book, it does say that 'the Founders' were a 'clan' of vampires. But 'clan' doesn't necessarily mean a vampire Clan. I suppose it's a matter of how you want to interpret it.

              Perhaps that story in the Wicked Dead is about Remus, who rose without a Clan and Beast, and became a proper Julii with an inner Beast after meeting with the Strix. Or perhaps it's about a completely different vampire. But in either case, it portrays a story of a vampire gaining his Clan and Beast from a Strix. And if that's the case, what is to say the other Clans weren't created in the same way?

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post
                But 'clan' doesn't necessarily mean a vampire Clan. I suppose it's a matter of how you want to interpret it.
                Not really. You'd have to wilfully misread it. There's absolutely no indication that it means anything other than a clan as we know them.

                Also, It misses that this is a story the Strix tell. It's very probably not true, or at best badly mangled.


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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Michael View Post

                  Not really. You'd have to wilfully misread it. There's absolutely no indication that it means anything other than a clan as we know them.

                  Also, It misses that this is a story the Strix tell. It's very probably not true, or at best badly mangled.

                  Not at all. There are plenty of clans that aren't Kindred Clans. The Romans had clans (that's where their middle names came from). Clans can also be blood-related or otherwise associated people, that doesn't necessarily mean they are a Clan in the mechanical sense. In fact, based on that story, it's almost certain the Founders were not an actual Kindred Clan as we know it, until they met the Strix that is. After that they became a clan as we know them (probably the Julii).

                  So, lets look at the factual. What are the actual facts we have? We know that the Disciplines are an expression of the Beast. No Beast, means no Disciplines. So what's a clan without a Beast and without Disciplines? Well, I don't know, but I know what it isn't: a Kindred Clan as we know them.
                  Last edited by Ventrue Life; 02-17-2019, 08:01 PM.

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                  • #54
                    Oh yeah, I recently stumbled upon this again, that also hints at the origin of vampires (or at least the origin of clans). It further solidifies my theory that not just the Julii, but possibly all clans were created by the Strix once.

                    This is an excerpt from the 'Mother' character found on page 222 of VtR 2e.

                    Kindred legend speaks of Strix originating entire clans. No
                    vampire in the modern nights can say whether or not this is
                    true, but the evidence is there for those who wish to look. Most
                    won’t like what they find, but the naked truth is rarely friend
                    to vampires. Some Strix, when they deign to speak with their
                    ancient nemeses at all, corroborate this story, delighting in
                    the anguish it causes their progeny. Or perhaps some wish to
                    remind their wayward children of what they have forsaken in
                    order set them back upon the proper path.
                    Just as vampires can lose their way, so can Strix. “Mother”
                    is one such creature. She — insofar as “she” sees herself as a
                    would-be mother — mourns the loss of her old purpose. The
                    fires of anger that once sustained her through the long nights
                    have died to an ember. Vampires are such a scattered species
                    and have all but forgotten their creators. There is little joy to
                    be found anymore in tormenting the descendants of another’s
                    line. Mother wants something more, something new and
                    exciting to disturb the monotony of the nights. She wants to
                    create a new clan, so that she may once more vent all her rage
                    upon something.

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                    • #55
                      Strix being progenitors of all the clans kind of puts a more human touch to them, in that it's someone's hate for another creation as jealousy or just hatred that another of your kind made something.

                      Would probably be too depressing an angle for me to take though.

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                      • #56
                        Or, hatred for your own spawn, who do not appreciate your gifts and quickly stray from your control. I mean, it seems mad to give "life" to something that rejects you, but that's essentially the Biblical creation story (as well as the rest of it) AND what parents do all the damn time around the world by having children.

                        Mother knows best, right?

                        So: we could bifurcate the origins for vampires into several different directions.

                        1. Individuals who die and are not properly buried (among other factors), and come back as blood-drinking "monsters" who are, of course, first attracted to their relatives and the village(s) that they know. They lack access to Disciplines, do not have a Beast (so no frenzy, among other things), but do have physical intensity to draw on and perhaps other supernatural merits they may find compatible in a lack-of-Beast situation (as that may be the complicating factor the Coil overcomes). Their greatest challenge is adapting to this existence without losing their mind and self-control (Integrity), avoiding final death, and fending off curious Strix to perceive potential in them. It is unknown if this type can transmit the vampiric condition through contamination, but chances are good they could.

                        2. "Kindred" individuals of Type 1 who are "adopted" by one or more Strix and provided dark power over the world. In exchange, they receive a Beast to "guide" them. What the Beast wants is radically opposed to what a human would want, and the dissonance quickly drives such vampires insane. Or, it they overcome the Beast and control it, much to the Strix's anger. The modern clans could each trace their origin back to a single individual or group receiving a gift from a Strix. The vampiric condition AND Beast are spread through contamination, among other means.

                        3. "Failed" Kindred--revenants and larva--arising from individuals contaminated by Type 2 vampires. They have a Beast and access to supernatural powers, but it "didn't take" completely and the result is not a balance of body, mind and Beast. They are wildly off-kilter and as such overemphasize one or another aspect of the vampiric condition, to the detriment of other parts in various (even non-intuitive) ways.

                        3.A Ghouls may be properly classified as Type 3 vampires, with an imbalance in body and mind depressing the influence of the Beast and thus their supernatural power potential. The root cause of course is the fact that they are alive when contaminated by Vitae. This is a solvable problem.

                        3.B Dhampir are, similarly, a variant Type 3 vampire with an excess of body and mind, manifest through will. It is not surprising, given that the conception of Dhampir, which requires the intersection of living and dead in a procreative act empowered by massive application of will--magic, in other words. Their Beast is crushed as a result into an odd form and manifests in different ways. The logical hypothesis is then that by altering the balance within Dhampir their Beast may be freed to more fully express itself and transform the Dhampir into a new and unique form of Type 2 vampire, much as a butterfly emerges from its chrysalis.

                        I hope you have enjoyed this abstract, and look forward to a more thorough presentation of underlying research at the symposium.

                        --Khanwulf

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                        • #57
                          I just want to point out a further complication in the Founder/Strix-as-origin-of-Beast legend.

                          In Requiem for Rome, towards the end of the book, we're told that the Strix in fact never bargained with Remus. It soothed Remus while he died, because the Strix planned to wear him.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by DubiousRuffian View Post
                            I just want to point out a further complication in the Founder/Strix-as-origin-of-Beast legend.

                            In Requiem for Rome, towards the end of the book, we're told that the Strix in fact never bargained with Remus. It soothed Remus while he died, because the Strix planned to wear him.
                            I literally quoted the passage on the last page.


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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by DubiousRuffian View Post
                              I just want to point out a further complication in the Founder/Strix-as-origin-of-Beast legend.

                              In Requiem for Rome, towards the end of the book, we're told that the Strix in fact never bargained with Remus. It soothed Remus while he died, because the Strix planned to wear him.
                              I don't see that as a complication, but more so as a confirmation. It (very roughly) matches the story from The Wicked Dead, where the striges also didn't bargain with the begging man, but instead soothed him before they enter him and gave their Beast to him, as their fucked up idea of a gift.

                              The Strix quite literally seem to think that giving the Kindred their Beast is a gift, something they should be happy about, something they should be grateful for. It's why they are so pissed off that the Kindred rebel against the Beast, trying to keep it under wraps to more easily blend in with human society, trying to keep their Beast tamed as they cling to their Humanity. It annoys the Strix a great deal that the Kindred squander the gift they're given.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post
                                The Strix quite literally seem to think that giving the Kindred their Beast is a gift, something they should be happy about, something they should be grateful for. It's why they are so pissed off that the Kindred rebel against the Beast, trying to keep it under wraps to more easily blend in with human society, trying to keep their Beast tamed as they cling to their Humanity. It annoys the Strix a great deal that the Kindred squander the gift they're given.
                                Shouldn't that make Belial's Brood and Strix natural allies? Brood is all about revaling in Beast, Strix want's vampires to dwell into Beast. Looks like Brood is doing what Strix wants, to me.


                                My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                                LGBT+ in CoD games

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