Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Frenzy, +BP and Defense

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Frenzy, +BP and Defense

    So, someone brought to my attention a weird ambiguity in the Frenzy rules, and I was hoping that it could be clarified.

    Page 104 of VtR2e: "Add her Blood Potency dots to any Strength, Dexterity, or Stamina rolls or resistances."

    No oxford comma, so I assume that's intended to mean +BP to Str, Dex and Stam rolls AND Str, Dex and Stam resistances?

    The problem is Defense is only a Dex resistance* half the time - when the character's Wits is higher. Does this mean that only the less physical (or very Witty) characters get the +BP to defense? Or should the p104 line be read as Str, Dex and Stam rolls and all resistances - with a blanket bonus of +BP to any Frenzying character's Defense**?

    *CofD p70/VtR2e p171 explicitly call Defense a resistance
    **Yes yes, Frenzy Chicken, I know, but answering my question alters Frenzy Chicken also so...


    The Yozis are right (and you should suffer and obey for all eternity).

  • #2
    Originally posted by Zahaqiel View Post
    So, someone brought to my attention a weird ambiguity in the Frenzy rules, and I was hoping that it could be clarified.

    Page 104 of VtR2e: "Add her Blood Potency dots to any Strength, Dexterity, or Stamina rolls or resistances."

    No oxford comma, so I assume that's intended to mean +BP to Str, Dex and Stam rolls AND Str, Dex and Stam resistances?

    The problem is Defense is only a Dex resistance* half the time - when the character's Wits is higher. Does this mean that only the less physical (or very Witty) characters get the +BP to defense? Or should the p104 line be read as Str, Dex and Stam rolls and all resistances - with a blanket bonus of +BP to any Frenzying character's Defense**?

    *CofD p70/VtR2e p171 explicitly call Defense a resistance
    **Yes yes, Frenzy Chicken, I know, but answering my question alters Frenzy Chicken also so...
    No because defense is the lowest between wits / dext. If something rises Dext above wits it does not count anymore for defense. I would probably consider if rise defense at the wits level or not.
    Furthermore there's a merit allowing you to use the highest between dext / wits. In such case you could be right.
    Consider also that coil of the wyrm allow you to add BP to defense/healt and speed as well.

    Comment


    • #3
      It doesn't increase your Dexterity, it's added to Dexterity-based rolls and resistances.

      As a side note, it explicitly doesn't add healthboxes either. And similarly, Speed is not increased by 2*BP when in a regular Frenzy because Speed is neither a roll nor a resistance. Same logic.
      Last edited by Zahaqiel; 11-01-2018, 09:46 AM.


      The Yozis are right (and you should suffer and obey for all eternity).

      Comment


      • #4
        Correct me if I'm wrong, but what the book is trying to say here is that when your physical stats are used defensively, such as when your defense is used as a negative penalty on the opponent's roll, your BP gets added to that penalty while you are in frenzy.

        Now, that does beg the question though: Doesn't BP get added in those instances anyway, even when you're not in frenzy? At least when you're trying to resist a supernatural attack that is. I believe the general rule of thumb is that BP is always added to your rolls and resistances when you're trying to defend against the supernatural, right?

        Maybe this "frenzy adds BP to your resistances" -rule isn't as clear as I thought it was....

        Edit: The way I understand it now after thinking about it some more is that your BP is probably indeed added to your defense when you are in frenzy. This would make certain vampires ridiculously overpowered during a frenzy though. Imagine a high BP vampire with Celerity and a respectable Wits, Dexterity and Athletics stat going into frenzy... Lets say for example a BP 5 vampire with Celerity 5, Wits 3, Dexterity 4, Athletics 5. That's not an unreasonable scenario, yet that vampire would still have 13 defense by default, and go up to 18 defense while in frenzy... how would you ever hit that vampire?
        Last edited by Ventrue Life; 11-01-2018, 11:23 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post
          Now, that does beg the question though: Doesn't BP get added in those instances anyway, even when you're not in frenzy? At least when you're trying to resist a supernatural attack that is. I believe the general rule of thumb is that BP is always added to your rolls and resistances when you're trying to defend against the supernatural, right?
          That is specifically and consistently not how Supernatural Tolerance Traits work — you add the dice for contested rolls, but resistances stay what they are normally unless a power says otherwise.


          Resident Sanguinary Analyst
          Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
            That is specifically and consistently not how Supernatural Tolerance Traits work — you add the dice for contested rolls, but resistances stay what they are normally unless a power says otherwise.

            And does frenzy change that? The sentence the OP quoted does make it sound like BP does get added to your resistances (except for health) when you are in frenzy.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post
              And does frenzy change that? The sentence the OP quoted does make it sound like BP does get added to your resistances (except for health) when you are in frenzy.
              Yes. It doesn't normally apply, but frenzy is not the normal state of a vampire. (Health isn't a Resistance Trait in the first place.)


              Resident Sanguinary Analyst
              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

              Comment


              • #8
                The fourth dot of coil of the wyrm adds the frenzying kindred's BP to their health, defense, and speed for the duration of the frenzy. Based on that, and reading the frenzy section itself, the frenzying kindred's BP is added to their rolls (like attacking) and their resistances (like if whatever caused their frenzy injected the kindred with a toxic substance).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Part of the problem is Requiem uses an expanded/ambiguous definition of "resistances".

                  In the CofD core, "resistances" are explicitly always static - things that subtract dice from rolls. Defense is explicitly one of these things. Requiem copies this same definition across, but elsewhere also uses the term "resistance" to cover the counter-pool on contested Discipline powers (Undead Menses is an example).

                  So to start with it's unclear if the Frenzy rules are referring to static resistances or rolled resistances.

                  This same issue kinda applies to Physical Intensity as well (Defense is both a resistance and a derived trait, but at least in that case there's a blanket "does not apply to derived traits" and a qualified "applies to resistances" which lends weight against it adding to Defense).

                  Basically, it'd be nice to know what the authors were actually trying to say.
                  Last edited by Zahaqiel; 11-04-2018, 02:51 PM.


                  The Yozis are right (and you should suffer and obey for all eternity).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    something im wondering a bit, just what disciplines can be used when frenzying or riding the wave?

                    can I gather the focus to use obfuscate and stalk my prey?


                    I know physical disciplines can be used, what about Majesty? or nightmare?

                    I think First 3 dots of auspex should be allowed but not the more cerebral 4th and 5th dot.

                    Pretty much no on dominate unless its a brief forceful order like "Leave" or "Kneel" or "Let me feed on you"
                    Last edited by Prince of the Night; 11-07-2018, 11:40 PM.


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                      something im wondering a bit, just what disciplines can be used when frenzying or riding the wave?

                      can I gather the focus to use obfuscate and stalk my prey?


                      I know physical disciplines can be used, what about Majesty? or nightmare?

                      I think First 3 dots of auspex should be allowed but not the more cerebral 4th and 5th dot.

                      Pretty much no on dominate unless its a brief forceful order like "Leave" or "Kneel" or "Let me feed on you"
                      All Disciplines can be used. Whether they're useful depends entire on the goal of the Frenzy and the context of the situation. Auspex 4+5 might be incredibly rare, but it doesn't mean they couldn't be used when Riding the Wave with a purpose of finding dirt on your rival (an uncommon Frenzy goal, but Coil of the Wyrm exists).


                      Bloodline: The Stygians
                      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        oh do you think its reasonable if riding the wave with goal of "Put the cur in his place" to leave him alive, if humiliated, so he can appreciate his place?


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Frenzy can be momentary - as short as a single action - so that seems very reasonable.


                          The Yozis are right (and you should suffer and obey for all eternity).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            If your Frenzy goal is to humiliate someone (common after insult induced Frenzy even if not Riding the Wave) then you'd actually fail your goal if you kill them instead of leaving them humiliated. It's quite natural for the Beast to want to be dominant, showing themselves to be the top dog, rather than outright killing people.


                            Bloodline: The Stygians
                            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              just for forms sake I'll ask this, do Frenzy bonuses stack with Physical disciplines?


                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X