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The actual origin of Dracula?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    As for Stoker's, probably some kind of Kindred with a shit ton of Banes and a lot of history. Or not-the mistake over how common an epithet Dracula was in the area and time was just as prevalent then as it is now.(And that's speaking historically)
    Stoker's Dracula can't be a Kindred because he doesn't have a beast nor does he suffer sunlight damage at all which is why I'm suggesting he's a entirely different type of vampire altogether well just like Carmilla for example.

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    • #17
      Or maybe he developed Coils that straight up removed those weaknesses. I mean, that's a huge part of what Ordo Dracul is all about, and if anyone has mastered the Mysteries to the point where weaknesses are removed instead of just reworked into more manageable levels it would most certainly be Dracula.


      Bloodline: The Stygians
      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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      • #18
        Just to nitpick - Carmilla is a Daeva in-setting. She's some kind of invictus royalty, and seems to be considered something of a brat princess.

        Also for Dracula as a unique vampire species, I dig it. I think there's a lot of potential for playing around with the idea that there are all these different "Dracula stories" - little 'd' draculas whose stories might have gotten mixed into the original story - maybe the Order establishment thinks the story changed with the telling, or tried to explain away differences between Book Dracula and standard Kindred, but it turns out that there is just The Dracula, and he is everything we hoped he would be. Kind of like a vampire version of Unforgiven.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Tessie View Post
          Or maybe he developed Coils that straight up removed those weaknesses. I mean, that's a huge part of what Ordo Dracul is all about, and if anyone has mastered the Mysteries to the point where weaknesses are removed instead of just reworked into more manageable levels it would most certainly be Dracula.
          Maybe Dracula is a title, kind of like 'Buddha'.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by DubiousRuffian View Post
            Just to nitpick - Carmilla is a Daeva in-setting. She's some kind of invictus royalty, and seems to be considered something of a brat princess..
            Then again though, I don't think Carmilla is a Kindred either especially if you're going by the original book because she doesn't suffer sunlight damage nor does she have a beast at all but just with uncontrolled romantic passions and blood thirst that she has yet to control not to mention she has a rosy healthy complexion and is warm that can pass off as mortal whose alive not deathly pale as Kindred or majority of Vampires are and has a faint beating heart and has to sleep in a coffin or confined space full of her victims blood as well. Not to mention she also has a reflection, shadow, can show up in camera etc unlike Dracula and of course from what I'm aware of, the Kindred in Requiem don't have a reflection or don't show up on cameras but only their clothes show I guess.

            Matter of fact sunlight damage didn't come until F.W. Murnau's Nosferatu but yet all the Kindred and all of their so called "diverse" bloodlines suffer sunlight damage and the beast/frenzy making them not so diverse as they first appear especially in the face of much grander vampire literature and folklore that is which is more evident that the Kindred all have a single origin due to these universal traits.
            Last edited by Black Blood; 01-28-2019, 12:47 PM.

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            • #21
              Kindred can replicate a living person's complexion via Blush of Life and cast a reflection if they choose.
              Stoker's Dracula was prone to abrupt fits of rage over petty shit as well as having his schemes thwarted.
              If you insist that Stoker's Dracula is really a lich, I would suggest looking up the Tremere legacy in Mage if you want to use World of Darkness mechanics.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by tsusasi View Post
                Stoker's Dracula was prone to abrupt fits of rage over petty shit as well as having his schemes thwarted.
                Then again that had nothing to do the beast/frenzying there but more like he's just a ruthless jerk in the book (since you know the actual Vlad Tepes II was a warlord voivode in life you know) and of course his glow inferno red everytime he does this along with engaging in vampiric acts (well rather like how Otto Goezti from Paul Feval's "Vampire City" glows green when engaging in vampiric activities especially) or displaying power that is but still under control unlike a Kindred in Frenzy who are more bestial/feral.

                Originally posted by tsusasi View Post
                If you insist that Stoker's Dracula is really a lich, I would suggest looking up the Tremere legacy in Mage if you want to use World of Darkness mechanics.
                Then again, a Lich isn't a Vampire but aren't they Walking Skeleton Necromancers though?
                Last edited by Black Blood; 01-28-2019, 01:03 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
                  …but still under control unlike a Kindred in Frenzy who are more bestial/feral.
                  Frenzy isn't the same as werewolves' Kuruth. Several of the books (in particular the clanbooks and Wicked Dead, though they're 1e, but also some of the 2e flavor) describe the Beast as being capable of careful hunting as well as just raw destruction: after all, the Beast is what gives a Mekhet Auspex and Obfuscate. Why would it just throw away all that subtlety in order to slap at someone with Strength 1 Brawl 0?

                  Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
                  Then again, a Lich isn't a Vampire but aren't they Walking Skeleton Necromancers though?
                  They're walking skeletons in D&D; in CofD, the term means a mage who's achieved a sort of immortality at the cost of consuming human souls. So they normally just look like, well, mages. (Except creepier because they eat lots of souls.)

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                  • #24
                    Only Reaper liches eat souls. Other types of liches do body hopping when their current body is about to give out, or transform themselves to an ephemeral entity (which comes with certain side effects). There's no single type of lich and they can look pretty different. The most basic life-extending kind will just look like they always did or continue ageing beyond the point when they should've died of natural causes, depending on how exactly they do it.


                    Bloodline: The Stygians
                    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Draconis View Post
                      Frenzy isn't the same as werewolves' Kuruth. Several of the books (in particular the clanbooks and Wicked Dead, though they're 1e, but also some of the 2e flavor) describe the Beast as being capable of careful hunting as well as just raw destruction: after all, the Beast is what gives a Mekhet Auspex and Obfuscate. Why would it just throw away all that subtlety in order to slap at someone with Strength 1 Brawl 0?
                      However during the state of frenzy, the Kindred is basically possessed by their beasts and they have no control what they're doing, while Dracula in the novel does.

                      Originally posted by tsusasi View Post
                      Kindred can replicate a living person's complexion via Blush of Life and cast a reflection if they choose.
                      However it requires blood points being spent much like using disciplines and not a permanent built-in feature like Carmilla has. Much like walking in sunlight unharmed is a built in feature for Carmilla, Dracula, Ruthven, etc which they don't have to use disciplines or anything like Kindred do.
                      Last edited by Black Blood; 01-28-2019, 02:14 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Just because you never see Dracula frenzy doesn't mean he has no Beast.

                        Just because Carmilla is always seen with Blush of Life active doesn't mean it's a constant built-in feature for her. Or it could be something from a Bloodline, even.

                        Of course, any Kindred who has a book written about them has strong motives to change as many strengths/weaknesses displayed in the text as they can. And with Kindred (and books) as old as those two, they have plenty of time to do it.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Maina View Post
                          Just because you never see Dracula frenzy doesn't mean he has no Beast.

                          Just because Carmilla is always seen with Blush of Life active doesn't mean it's a constant built-in feature for her. Or it could be something from a Bloodline, even.

                          Of course, any Kindred who has a book written about them has strong motives to change as many strengths/weaknesses displayed in the text as they can. And with Kindred (and books) as old as those two, they have plenty of time to do it.
                          Or maybe it's time to stop assuming every Vampire is a Kindred by default since I rather treat Kindred as a particular strain/variation of vampirism which Dracula and Carmilla don't belong to hence why they never frenzy and Carmilla always has blush of life built into her because it's specific to their own variation of vampirism.

                          Hence Dracula's and Carmilla's vampirism are more "superior" and polished via a occultist stance than your typical Kindred mainly because they have no beast and their powers are more fluid and more powerful than simple disciplines (although they also have many weaknesses which is a price to pay for great power) and plus they can walk in the sun unlike Kindred do.

                          Also Ruthven and Varney clearly are not Kindred at all because they can be killed through normal means but they can always resurrect through the rays of a full moon hence they have no permanent "Final Death" as long the Full Moon is present which is another feature that Kindred don't have either because once a Kindred dies, they die permanently unlike Dracula, Ruthven, Varney and possibly even Carmilla which they can be resurrected via different means (Full Moon for Ruthven and Varney and Blood sacrifices for Dracula and Carmilla or any Vampire of Karnstein bloodline).

                          Also get this too, Ruthven and Clarimonde have no fangs either and apparently all Kindred have fangs unless they're ripped out of them but I guess I assume they regrow them though.
                          Last edited by Black Blood; 01-28-2019, 05:22 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
                            Or maybe it's time to stop assuming every Vampire is a Kindred by default since I rather treat Kindred as a particular strain/variation of vampirism which Dracula and Carmilla don't belong to.
                            It'd be easier if you actually explained what you're trying to do.


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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Michael View Post

                              It'd be easier if you actually explained what you're trying to do.
                              I'm basically brainstorming a hypothetical setting where Vampirism exists as various snowflakes from each other in the CoD setting with Kindred as they are presented vanilla are one of them among many others.

                              Not actually running a game or anything but just putting certain thoughts out there you know.
                              Last edited by Black Blood; 01-28-2019, 05:20 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Well, there are various types of vampires in the Requiem setting beyond kindred. I believe one of the night horrors books (and the upcoming one) had chapters dedicated to them; my personal favorite was the little parasitic creature that would replace someone's tongue and pretty much go onto control their minds and bodies for the sole purpose of infecting more people with parasites. On a side note, Kindred show up fuzzy in cameras and mirrors if they aren't actively paying enough attention for an accurate picture to be taken.

                                Now, in my games the title of Dracula has always been just that: a title. Various kindred have had it, and various vampires have had it. Now if you wanted to keep the classics (Dracula, Carmilla, etc.) as purely kindred, obscure bloodlines and occultic methods to increase their power (which the Coils of the Ordo definitely count as) then that works out. There's actually one written up bloodline with access to resurrection, and one scale of the wyrm has a way to provide it as well.

                                Now, if you wanted to make them other types of vampires beyond kindred, that's also fine. I know of one type of vampire called the Blood Bathers that showed up in the Immortals book from 1e (they also show up in dark eras as well). They basically each had rituals for extending their lives and some of the rituals even granted power, but they were ultimately still living creatures. I could see Carmilla being a blood bather. I also recall one group of vampires called Ghuls (I probably didn't spell that right) that were also still living creatures that had access to powerful magicks in exchange for having to eat human flesh (Dracula might fit under this theoretically, but I think we could find something better). We've also got the strix, your classic dead guy rises from the grave possessed by an evil spirit vampire.

                                So yeah, Requiem presents the idea that there are various types of vampires. I believe Kindred still have their place as some of the toughest and most mutable vampires out there though, since their form of immortality is honestly the most reliable form that we generally see in the Requiem, or even some other splats (outside of the Purified shamans, of course). So I wouldn't at all consider them weak vampires, all things considered.

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