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Homebrew: Requiem Tzimisce

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Ever Professional View Post
    Khanwulf Well, if I can toss my two cents in on the Koldunic Sorcery/Kraina matter, I don't particularly think it maps to the Coils well at all like Vicissitude does. However, I could totally see it being like how Kigan is to Cruac (mechanically the same, but ultimately two different ritual disciplines with incompatible teachings), or what Gilded Cage Sorcery is to Theban Sorcery (Gilded Cage Sorcery being a combination of Theban Sorcery and various other occult teachings). You could also make it one of the many disciplines that eventually folded into modern day Cruac, much like Veneficia was (I believe that was the case, at least).

    However, if you want it to be a coil it could be similar to the Coil of Quintessence from TYON. Vicissitude being focused on how to change yourself internally, with the KS analogue focusing on how you master the land as if it were you're own body. However, I still kind of lean towards the sorcery bit, but whatever works works.
    Oh I totally agree and did not intend to suggest that koldunic sorcery would be best a Coil. Though the reference to wyrms nests could confuse things.

    I'm headcanoning something where "old clan" Tzimisce, who predate Dracula, tended to wander off into the Circle and practice forms of blood barter with spirits. Meanwhile Dracula's new clan are busy perfecting themselves and don't have time to share personal rulership with "vassal spirits".

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    • #17
      Originally posted by DubiousRuffian View Post

      Ooh, completely different direction, but potentially a good way to tie into the God Machine. Maybe the Holy Engineers are a splinter faction of the Tzmitce.

      Also, further to my "scales as Devotions on Devotions", grotesque chimera could easily be a Vicissitude/Animalism 2 Devotion.




      I like the idea but it feels more like a Macelarius (sp) devotion.


      Also, for the blood coil, maybe it could let you count your BP as being higher for blood pool reasons? Or let you spend blood as if your BP were higher
      As alluded to somewhat above, I think a more complete Tzimisce would understand and rule the mortal and immortal sides of their land, harnessing the spirits to do his bidding and placing all in subservience to themselves.

      It's a vision. Actual results would vary. And then Dracula flips the table over and declared personal perfection a higher goal than domain perfection. Why terrorize your population like a god when you can BE God and supplant Him? Vision, again.

      So what happened to the old Tzimisce? Could you tell a Gangrel ruler of the boardroom from a Slavic voivode who demanded and received submission from among the trees that became those boards? Who ruled with terror not because he had fancy blood powers like the Nos, but because he was a horror and a fist of iron.

      Oh, and the idea of playing with the effects of blood potency is interesting. That was (in one form) a middling rank power of VtM thaumaturgy and the potential link to an as-yet-unrealized version in CofD is ... delicious.
      Last edited by Khanwulf; 03-05-2019, 10:40 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
        Oh, and the idea of playing with the effects of blood potency is interesting. That was (in one form) a middling rank power of VtM thaumaturgy and the potential link to an as-yet-unrealized version in CofD is ... delicious.
        It has one Requiem representation in Thanatology from Danse Macabre.


        Bloodline: The Stygians
        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Tessie View Post

          It has one Requiem representation in Thanatology from Danse Macabre.

          Interesting and I'll have to look. I was referring to Thaumaturgy as a whole however.

          One of the things in my mental bundle is the connection between Tzimisce and the Tremere, as they formed two sides of the Eastern-European coin and were deeply meshed thanks to the Omen War. As counterparts I'd be inclined to make Thaumaturgy a Coil as well, with Paths as supernatural merits and rituals as Scales, mechanically speaking. This reflects the relative difficulty and discipline (small 'd') that their method of blood magic required: very rigid, formulated application of Hermetic theory. Thenodies and the other, more flexible systems too broad, while VtM's Thaumaturgical rituals of significant power were represented as having taken the Tremere enormous effort to devise. Counterpoint to their Koldunic (and Assamite) antagonists who seemed to find their magic more flexible but rarer.

          So, going firmly back to the Tzimisce from this aside, I think there's room in this excellent portrayal for "alternative" history of the clan that breaks members off into the Circle and defines Koldunic Sorcery for them. It also ties into the obscurity of the group in modern nights, where they have purposefully stepped back from the light and let others think they are Gangrel or defined themselves more by Covenant. Is such an alternate telling of origins true? Up to the Storyteller, but having different versions enables confusion. If you're a Slavic celebrant of Kupala (totally not an "earth demon" btw) and other pagan deities casually co-opted, you're still just a Circle member until it's important to dig into things in the story.

          --Khanwulf

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          • #20
            DubiousRuffian Tessie Khanwulf could you go a bit more in depth about what you guys are talking about relating to Thaumaturgy and Blood Potency? I'm not quite sure I get it. I'm also not familiar with Thanatology.

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            • #21
              The most common Path in Thaumaturgy is Path of Blood. The third dot allows you to temporarily shift your own Generation (i.e. Blood Potency in Requiem) while other dots are based around recognising and manipulating blood points (Vitae) in various ways.
              Thanatology is a Covenant specific Discipline in the Danse Macabre that allows you to do many of the same things, except it's more focused on transference than empowerment and is heavily death flavoured, as the name suggests.


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post
                DubiousRuffian Tessie Khanwulf could you go a bit more in depth about what you guys are talking about relating to Thaumaturgy and Blood Potency? I'm not quite sure I get it. I'm also not familiar with Thanatology.
                This is a bit of a surprising comment since you yourself posted a fine version of the Tremere not long ago. Regardless, for the sake of discussion Blood Potency = Generation and the third-dot power of the Path of Blood (Blood of Potency) in VtM lowered the user's Generation for a limited time. I... thought you modeled it rather well in your version actually (which I read a few hours ago, only), including the addition of a still Condition for activation.

                [My own preference would still be to model Thaumaturgy as a Coil emulating Path of Blood, with Scales for the Rituals and a set of supernatural merits for other path powers. This could contrast with Koldunic Sorcery which would be somewhat mechanically indistinguishable from Cruac, except that it thematically would focus on identifying, contacting and employing (through blood sacrifice and other actions) spirits to accomplish desired effects.]

                --Khanwulf

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                • #23
                  If we're talking about Thamaturgy, there's a discipline called Blut Alcehmie that's from an eastern european bloodline of Ventrue that allows them certain alchemical powers over blood and vitae; their third tier power was being able to heighten their blood potency. I'd draw some inspiration from that discipline if you wanted to try and recreate thaumaturgy. It was also a strange discipline because it wasn't instant and required a laboratory to actually use.

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                  • #24
                    Yeah, Blut Alchemie was cool because it adapted OWoD Thaumaturgy (specifically a mixture of Path of Blood, Path of Alchemy, and Biothaum) in a way that actually felt thematic and fit into the setting.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post

                      This is a bit of a surprising comment since you yourself posted a fine version of the Tremere not long ago. Regardless, for the sake of discussion Blood Potency = Generation and the third-dot power of the Path of Blood (Blood of Potency) in VtM lowered the user's Generation for a limited time. I... thought you modeled it rather well in your version actually (which I read a few hours ago, only), including the addition of a still Condition for activation.

                      [My own preference would still be to model Thaumaturgy as a Coil emulating Path of Blood, with Scales for the Rituals and a set of supernatural merits for other path powers. This could contrast with Koldunic Sorcery which would be somewhat mechanically indistinguishable from Cruac, except that it thematically would focus on identifying, contacting and employing (through blood sacrifice and other actions) spirits to accomplish desired effects.]

                      --Khanwulf
                      Ah, I was confused because I thought you were talking about a Requiem Thaumaturgy (which doesn't exist officially) because you mentioned Blood Potency, I forgot for a minute that Blood Potency is also a thing now in V5. I also didn't quite understand how this discussion was relevant tot he Tzimisce or my conversion of it. Hence the confusion. That was on me.

                      At any rate, I took in some of the feedback you guys gave and changed some things.

                      1. Restructure the Bones now has it's own niche power, but also tabs into Protean, it doesn't replace, overlap or clash with Protean anymore (I think, let me know if you think it needs further tweaking).

                      2. Distill the Blood is no longer a permanent change. It basically allows you to turn the current Vitae in your system into poisonous Vitae during your daysleep. I also changed the Draw the Blood Scale that goes with it to reflect the new version of Distill the Blood.

                      3. I slightly tweaked Summon the Sculpture to make it a bit more flexible.


                      Let me know what you think!
                      Last edited by Ventrue Life; 03-07-2019, 01:45 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Very nice take on the Tzimisce, Ventrue Life .

                        You've got a pretty solid idea for the powers of Vicissitude, even while I personally would have made it an actual Discipline rather than a Coil or given the Tzimisce Protean. On the positive side I'm glad that you kept the clan somewhat, a choice which I also applaude, focused as opposed to try and cram every little theme and aspect of them into your view of it but some individual parts mentioned did feel, at least for me, a bit disjointed and out of place if I hadn't known a bit about the VtM clan.

                        But there are two things that I think could be improved upon.

                        The first thing is that these Tzimisce, after reading the text, didn't feel like Tzimisce feels to me in some regards. I didn't get the contempt for humanity, their hybris and shedding of all things human to embrace an alien mindset. Yes, there were references, but it felt more like you were telling me than showing me how un-human they are. And there were explaintions to certain things that made them more relatable to me than I probably would have liked the Tzimisce to be. I know it might sound wierd but the alieness of the clan is something that I feel is pretty central, and perhaps unique, for the Tzimisce. I'm not sure how I would have done it differently, but I feel that I should give my honest opinion here.

                        And secondly, given that this is your take on a pretty well known VtM clan to a VtR version, I would have appreciated some example characters at the end of the document to give some ideas about both how your vision for them. Both characters playing close to the core of the clan's themes would look like, as well as some who are on the thematic fringe of the clan but still viable ways to follow the clan's concept.

                        EDITED: Rephrased the first line.
                        Last edited by Gurkhal; 03-29-2019, 03:44 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Gurkhal View Post
                          Very nice take on the Tzimisce, Ventrue Life .

                          You've got a pretty solid idea for the powers of Vicissitude, even while I personally would have made it an actual Discipline rather than a Coil or given the Tzimisce Protean. On the positive side I'm glad that you kept the clan somewhat, a choice which I also applaude, focused as opposed to try and cram every little theme and aspect of them into your view of it but some individual parts mentioned did feel, at least for me, a bit disjointed and out of place if I hadn't known a bit about the VtM clan.

                          But there are two things that I think could be improved upon.

                          The first thing is that these Tzimisce, after reading the text, didn't feel like Tzimisce feels to me in some regards. I didn't get the contempt for humanity, their hybris and shedding of all things human to embrace an alien mindset. Yes, there were references, but it felt more like you were telling me than showing me how un-human they are. And there were explaintions to certain things that made them more relatable to me than I probably would have liked the Tzimisce to be. I know it might sound wierd but the alieness of the clan is something that I feel is pretty central, and perhaps unique, for the Tzimisce. I'm not sure how I would have done it differently, but I feel that I should give my honest opinion here.

                          And secondly, given that this is your take on a pretty well known VtM clan to a VtR version, I would have appreciated some example characters at the end of the document to give some ideas about both how your vision for them. Both characters playing close to the core of the clan's themes would look like, as well as some who are on the thematic fringe of the clan but still viable ways to follow the clan's concept.

                          EDITED: Rephrased the first line.
                          Thanks for the compliment and feedback!

                          I think the reason my VtR Tzimisce ended up feeling less alien is because I used Rites of the Dragon as canon. In that story, Dracula goes through multiple stages of character development, and only during his first couple of decades as a vampire, did he feel true contempt for humanity. During that time, he spawned Mara, easily the most wicked of his brides. Dracula's look on humanity changed when he met Anoushka, his second bride, who wanted to strife to undo the vampiric curse by embracing her humanity. When he met Lisette, Dracula realized that neither Mara or Anoushka were right, and that the true path to vampiric transcendence had nothing to do with humanity either way. Forsaking humanity was pointless, trying to become human again was pointless. Instead, Dracula wanted to become more than either the Man or the Beast had to offer. He wanted to transcend both Man and Beast. He wanted to turn the vampiric curse into a vampiric blessing.

                          That is not to say that I don't think your criticism is valid. It is. And it's definitely something I will take into consideration for my next revision.

                          I followed the VtR formatting of presenting this clan, thus no example characters, just a 'how to make a monster' section. I don't mind coming up with some example characters like you find in the back of the Ordo Dracul book, if that's what you want. I would definitely enjoy doing that, it's just a matter of finding the time to do it.

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