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Touchstones of the Ghoul, Revenant, and Kindred kind

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  • Touchstones of the Ghoul, Revenant, and Kindred kind

    Per RAW do you have to be an elder to have a ghoul, revenant, or kindred touchstone?

    And what makes an elder an elder? 50XP? 100XP? 100 year of unlife?

    Also a confusing point in One Thousand Years of Night on page 104 it says: "Kindred make great allies and enemies. They don't make Touchstones though.". And then there is a whole section about having kindred touchstones. Does that mean they don't make great Touchstones? Maybe they just forgot a word in that sentence?

    And it looks like the only mechanical penalty is that they don't count as human interaction?


  • #2
    Per the corebook, an "elder" is a Kindred who's been undead for at least a hundred and fifty years.

    Whether in the initial sense of reminding you that you were alive or in the elder sense of sustaining your memories, most random Kindred are not going to serve as Touchstones for an elder. Vampires who can anchor your Humanity through reminding you of your mortal days are thin on the ground, and one of the next sentences after the one you're quoting specifies that they might make Simulacra out of such Kindred, i.e. they keep you out of the drawbacks of having no Touchstones but offer no other benefit.


    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
      Per the corebook, an "elder" is a Kindred who's been undead for at least a hundred and fifty years.

      Whether in the initial sense of reminding you that you were alive or in the elder sense of sustaining your memories, most random Kindred are not going to serve as Touchstones for an elder. Vampires who can anchor your Humanity through reminding you of your mortal days are thin on the ground, and one of the next sentences after the one you're quoting specifies that they might make Simulacra out of such Kindred, i.e. they keep you out of the drawbacks of having no Touchstones but offer no other benefit.
      Also from Thousand Years of Night:


      MARRIED BY BLOOD (•)
      Prerequisites: Kindred Touchstone (your spouse)
      Your character has a taken a vampire spouse. This relationship
      is genuine, regardless of the emotions involved, and not one
      she is inclined to break: her gods sanctified the relationship,
      she genuinely loves her partner, or the marriage is affirmed
      through the Vinculum.
      Your character and her spouse may share Haven and
      Retainers, effectively adding those dots together. Expenditures
      either makes count against this communal pool. Additionally,
      whenever one of them loses a dot of Status they both share, the
      other does too. The All Night Society is always happy to judge
      a chain on its weakest link.


      Of course "random Kindred" aren't going to become Touchstones, just like "random mortals" aren't going to be Touchstones either. Touchstones are never random. But clearly it's possible for a fellow vampire to become an elder's touchstone, as is made clear with the existence of this Merit.

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      • #4
        No. The criteria is that the touchstone reminds the kindred in question of what it's like to be human or what they were like when they were still human.

        You're an elder when the kindred around you consider you an elder.

        In general, another kindred wouldn't make an ideal touchstone, but exceptions exist and I can easily see how another kindred would function as a touchstone, much like I see people who are great examples of how not to behave.
        Last edited by tsusasi; 03-07-2019, 04:15 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post
          Of course "random Kindred" aren't going to become Touchstones, just like "random mortals" aren't going to be Touchstones either. Touchstones are never random. But clearly it's possible for a fellow vampire to become an elder's touchstone, as is made clear with the existence of this Merit.
          Is it your contention that the "confusing point" on Page 104 was referring to this Merit?

          Because that's pretty much the only context in which "Kindred as a general group do not serve as a useful field from which to directly draw strong connections to the living" actually contradicts "you can, with the right particular emotional grounding, keep detachment at bay through your relationship with another vampire."


          Resident Sanguinary Analyst
          Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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          • #6
            Originally posted by mikerand View Post
            Also a confusing point in One Thousand Years of Night on page 104 it says: "Kindred make great allies and enemies. They don't make Touchstones though.". And then there is a whole section about having kindred touchstones. Does that mean they don't make great Touchstones? Maybe they just forgot a word in that sentence?
            "Kindred make great allies and enemies. They don’t make great Touchstones though."

            I think your copy isn't up to date. Time to redownload it from DriveThruRPG.

            Edit:
            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
            Whether in the initial sense of reminding you that you were alive or in the elder sense of sustaining your memories, most random Kindred are not going to serve as Touchstones for an elder. Vampires who can anchor your Humanity through reminding you of your mortal days are thin on the ground, and one of the next sentences after the one you're quoting specifies that they might make Simulacra out of such Kindred, i.e. they keep you out of the drawbacks of having no Touchstones but offer no other benefit.
            You could've just said "I think they meant that Kindred don't make great Touchstones rather than not Touchstones at all" and not start arguing from that position without clarifying it. It would've prevented confusion and arguing.
            Last edited by Tessie; 03-08-2019, 07:12 AM.


            Bloodline: The Stygians
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            • #7
              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
              Is it your contention that the "confusing point" on Page 104 was referring to this Merit?

              Because that's pretty much the only context in which "Kindred as a general group do not serve as a useful field from which to directly draw strong connections to the living" actually contradicts "you can, with the right particular emotional grounding, keep detachment at bay through your relationship with another vampire."
              I'm saying that the existence of this Merit proves there are exceptions to the "Kindred aren't good Touchstones"-rule, for example a Kindred spouse.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                You could've just said "I think they meant that Kindred don't make great Touchstones rather than not Touchstones at all" and not start arguing from that position without clarifying it.
                Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post
                I'm saying that the existence of this Merit proves there are exceptions to the "Kindred aren't good Touchstones"-rule
                I didn't think I needed to clarify that "there aren't many Kindred in a given vampire's unlife who can serve as Touchstones" meant "there aren't many Kindred in a given vampire's unlife who can serve as Touchstones," much less that citing a statement that Kindred could be made into a type of Touchstone could be taken in any other way than "it's textually possible for Kindred to be made into Touchstones," but sure.


                Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  I didn't think I needed to clarify that "there aren't many Kindred in a given vampire's unlife who can serve as Touchstones" meant "there aren't many Kindred in a given vampire's unlife who can serve as Touchstones," much less that citing a statement that Kindred could be made into a type of Touchstone could be taken in any other way than "it's textually possible for Kindred to be made into Touchstones," but sure.
                  You made it sound like the best thing a Kindred can be is a Simulacra Touchstone, which is not the case. I just wanted to avoid potential confusion and misinformation for the OP, that's all.

                  Also, your haughty tone is absolutely unnecessary. Lets keep it friendly, shall we.
                  Last edited by Ventrue Life; 03-08-2019, 09:58 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post
                    You made it sound like the best thing a Kindred can be is a Simulacra Touchstone
                    "The best" here meaning "literally mechanically identical to an ordinary Touchstone of the same individual save for the lack of a single dice bonus, which is one of five different things Touchstones provide for a vampire, and also still a Touchstone."

                    A Simulacra is still a Touchstone (they're introduced as "Simulacra Touchstones"), and it's only inferior to a normal Touchstone in the same way that a detached Touchstone is inferior to an attached Touchstone — a difference which is small enough that the book Simulacra are introduced in brings them up on the same page as an alternative system whose sole impact is "reduce the individual bonus you get for attached Touchstones, but you get twice as many and the bonus-stacking goes +1/+2/+3 instead of +2/+3."

                    Your vampire spouse can still talk you down from frenzy. Your pet revenant still enables you to bleed off penalties from Tempted. Your fast friendship with your ghoul confidant still serves as a source of Willpower when you fight to keep them around. None of this changes if these Touchstones are Simulacra, and if you're a run-of-the-mill Humanity 3 elder then there is zero difference between that and having them as normal Touchstones unless they're sharing the role with two to six other subjects.

                    I just wanted to avoid potential confusion and misinformation for the OP, that's all.

                    Also, your haughty tone is absolutely unnecessary. Lets keep it friendly, shall we.
                    I got a notification on the forum's systems because you decided it was more important for you to directly needle me about my word choice while splitting hairs over the arbitrary difference between a Touchstone and a Simulacra Touchstone than to course-correct the perceived narrowness of statement in a fashion addressed to the OP or the thread as a whole. You can talk about necessity all you like, but if all you want to do is prevent someone else from getting the wrong takeaway from something I said then the person to talk to about that is not me and the tone to take with that correction is not argumentation.
                    Last edited by Satchel; 03-09-2019, 10:01 PM.


                    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                      "The best" here meaning "literally mechanically identical to an ordinary Touchstone of the same individual save for the lack of a single dice bonus, which is one of five different things Touchstones provide for a vampire, and also still a Touchstone."

                      A Simulacra is still a Touchstone (they're introduced as "Simulacra Touchstones"), and it's only inferior to a normal Touchstone in the same way that a detached Touchstone is inferior to an attached Touchstone — a difference which is small enough that the book Simulacra are introduced in brings them up on the same page as an alternative system whose sole impact is "reduce the individual bonus you get for attached Touchstones, but you get twice as many and the bonus-stacking goes +1/+2/+3 instead of +2/+3."

                      Your vampire spouse can still talk you down from frenzy. Your pet revenant still enables you to bleed off penalties from Tempted. Your fast friendship with your ghoul confidant still serves as a source of Willpower when you fight to keep them around. None of this changes if these Touchstones are Simulacra, and if you're a run-of-the-mill Humanity 3 elder then there is zero difference between that and having them as normal Touchstones unless they're sharing the role with two to six other subjects.

                      I got a notification on the forum's systems because you decided it was more important for you to directly needle me about my word choice while splitting hairs over the arbitrary difference between a Touchstone and a Simulacra Touchstone than to course-correct the perceived narrowness of statement in a fashion addressed to the OP or the thread as a whole. You can talk about necessity all you like, but if all you want to do is prevent someone else from getting the wrong takeaway from something I said then the person to talk to about that is not me and the tone to take with that correction is not argumentation.

                      I don't know what your problem is, but whatever it is, I'm sure it has nothing to do with me (and if it is related to me, you can take it up with me in PMs). So you either reply to me in a respectful manner or you do not reply to me at all. Your haughty tone is not appreciated.

                      I quoted your post because my post was a reply/addition to yours. That's how forums work. Someone says something, someone else has something to reply or add to that, they quote you. I figured you knew that already, but apparently not.

                      Accusing someone else of splitting hairs is pretty rich coming from you. 99% of your posts on this forum are splitting hairs over rules and language.


                      For the sake of not derailing this thread, I'm done here. If you have something to say to me in reply to this, you can do so in PMs.
                      Last edited by Ventrue Life; 03-09-2019, 10:44 PM.

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