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  • Vampire the Requiem 2e

    I purchased many of the VTR books when they were released but never played the system. In the last year or two I've heard about the revised edition and how much of an improvement it is over the original. I'm hesitant to shell out $20 for the PDF when I'm not sure I'd ever run the game but I am curious what these improvements over the original might be and how the game plays differently from how it is written in the original VTR core. Could anyone help me with this?

  • #2
    Whether or not you consider it an improvement depends on what you considered deficient or in need of improvement from first edition.
    Personally the only change I unequivocally liked was predator's taint to the predatory aura mechanics. Everything else was changed for the worse or in the case of disciplines simply shifting the problem to a different area.

    Probably the biggest change outside of the game theme shifts is discipline mechanics. Most disciplines require the user to establish a baseline condition from the level 1 power and then work up from there to get higher level effects. The key to resisting most higher level discipline powers is to resist or disable that initial condition because unless it's a handful and a half of other specific rank disciplines, you don't get resist checks for subsequent powers.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by tsusasi View Post
      Most disciplines require the user to establish a baseline condition from the level 1 power and then work up from there to get higher level effects.
      This is only the case for two of the ten Disciplines. It is not "most" by any definition of the word.

      Most (though not all) opinions I've seen in this forum, other forums, and reviews is that the Chronicles of Darkness (2e) ruleset is hands-down an improvement over the New World of Darkness (1e) one. Having run both for several years each, I'm inclined to agree. At least for the core materials: I haven't bought a lot of the supplements due to both lack of funds and an apparent steep power creep.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Maina View Post

        This is only the case for two of the ten Disciplines. It is not "most" by any definition of the word.

        Most (though not all) opinions I've seen in this forum, other forums, and reviews is that the Chronicles of Darkness (2e) ruleset is hands-down an improvement over the New World of Darkness (1e) one. Having run both for several years each, I'm inclined to agree. At least for the core materials: I haven't bought a lot of the supplements due to both lack of funds and an apparent steep power creep.
        Majesty, Dominate, Nightmare, and Obfuscate require you to have installed a condition using a previous level of the discipline. Only level 5 of Majesty provisionally lets you do an end run around that. And even specific levels of Animalism and Protean require you to use previous levels in order to benefit from higher. That is all the disciplines except Auspex (which arguably doesn't really fit since higher levels are usually more effective once you've gone fishing with the lower levels) and the three physicals. 6 out of 10 is 60% therefore meets the definition of "MOST" disciplines

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        • #5
          You are moving goalposts. You said "Most disciplines require the user to establish a baseline condition from the level 1 power and then work up from there to get higher level effects."

          This is absolutely not the case. Protean does not use Conditions at all. One of the powers enhances an earlier power, but that is neither a level 1 power or a Condition. The same is the case for Obfuscate; no Conditions, only powers that enhance and provide additional functionality to lower level powers. As you admit, the same is true of Animalism. The level 1 Nightmare Discipline doesn't involve Conditions at all, and only the capstone level 5 ability requires Conditions to use. The others get no benefit whatsoever.

          There are only two Disciplines in the game that "establish a baseline condition from the level 1 power and then work up from there." There are only two Disciplines where "the key to resisting [...] discipline powers is to resist or disable that initial condition."

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          • #6
            I personally prefer 2ed. so far compared to 1ed. And honestly I always felt the same feeling from the most part of the users from this forum.

            I love the new disciplines design. Nightmare and Animalism are now a very good option to go. Physical disciplines are not a waste of px as in the 1ed and much more.
            I love the new Frenzy system and Banes are something able to diversificate every kindred giving to the degeneration a deeper and more horrorific meaning.

            There is a lot to talk about and, ultimately, if you are going to like or not the changes it's only depending on your personal tastes but I would for sure recomend to take it.

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            • #7
              Would you say the tone of the game remains consistent between the editions.

              From my admittedly limited understanding of Requiem its a game focused less about Machiavellian machinations between vampire elders and instead a game of intense personal horror and night to night survival?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Frontline989 View Post
                Would you say the tone of the game remains consistent between the editions.

                From my admittedly limited understanding of Requiem its a game focused less about Machiavellian machinations between vampire elders and instead a game of intense personal horror and night to night survival?
                I'd argue both but we've played both extensively. I'd agree with you that 2nd edition is more about personal horror. You have more things to keep track of in your immediate vicinity. You got your touch stone that basically gives you an excuse/encouragement to continue to interact in some capacity with your former life. Blood Potency also provides more immediate benefits. You can spend 2 vitae a turn at blood potency 2 as opposed to 4 in 1st edition (If I re-call.) this continues for each level you raise. Disciplines are a lot more balanced and as a result feel a lot more powerful. Vampires are more durable. Vampires now downgrade sources of lethal into bashing and most sources of aggravated (there are exceptions) into lethal. So combat is a very different dynamic and a lot less lethal as a result. Two vampires fighting are more likely to beat one into it submits rather than into torpor. Murder would have to be something deliberate and planned for creating more drama in that regard.

                You don't have the frenzy chance upon meeting new vampires. That's been done away with. The covenants are also different and rather than being outright political rivals to each other are more different organizations with different goals. Far more compatible than they used to be. Also now you can take additional banes to stave off the drop in humanity which gives you additional weaknesses (there's examples in the book but you can get creative) that can add further development to your character and also other weaknesses to keep track of or keep hidden. On the other hand more weaknesses to exploit in your rivals who will likely pick up an additional bane or two. While it does have a more personal horror feel to it there's no reason why you couldn't use the updated mechanics and run it the way you have been for years.

                Machiavellian scheming is most definitely still a thing. Vampires are paranoid about their banes being discovered, their touch stones being discovered/targeted, and the blood bond is easier to place on each other as well and has less methods of getting around now. You have more reasons not to let others get too close or they might learn additional ways to get to you but I guess that also adds more to that personal horror.

                If I'm wrong on things I don't mind others correcting me. It's been awhile now since I played 1st edition but those are some of the main differences that come to mind.

                *Edit* In short my advice is look up what the disciplines do now and if you're not interested in the idea of banes, touch stones, more durable vampires, and loss of the predator aura (in the sense of vampires being on edge meeting each other), and many of the other changes.. you might be just fine keeping what you have. If the new stuff sounds interesting you might want to give it a shot.

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                • #9
                  I'd say if you buy anything, get the 2e corebook (or the God-Machine Update, which is basically a patch document for the 1e corebook). The most dramatic improvements are there: revised experience system, new rules for chases and social maneuvering, Horrors, etc. The changes to Vampire itself are fairly minor by comparison—the themes stayed mostly the same, and most of the ideas from 1e (five clans, five covenants, ten disciplines) are the same.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Frontline989 View Post
                    Would you say the tone of the game remains consistent between the editions.

                    From my admittedly limited understanding of Requiem its a game focused less about Machiavellian machinations between vampire elders and instead a game of intense personal horror and night to night survival?
                    The tone is pretty much the same. Soemthing good of Requiem in general is that it allows you to give the taint you prefer or any mix.

                    You have plenty of personal horror hooks: Banes, Frenzy, ecc.
                    But also very intricated politics: several Covenants fighting each other more or less openly, almost the same feudal hierarchy and so on.
                    Something I forgot and I really love about 2 ed (Draconis already cited them) ate the new chases and Social manouvres system.
                    I think that if properly used they add to a normal chase a lot more variety, pushing both the player and Master to be creative and original. Same for the social manouvres, even though they can' be used for anything but just in special occasions.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Frontline989 View Post
                      Would you say the tone of the game remains consistent between the editions.
                      Short answer, yes, long answer, mostly. If you dig back into the really early Requiem supplements the tone is a bit different. It's coming fresh off Masquerade and doesn't want to rock the boat too much, but it's also trying hard not to just be Masquerade 2.0, so much of the oldest material is stuck between those two impulses. Once you hit Damnation City and Requiem for Rome (which was kind of a soft reboot of the line anyway), the difference between first edition and second edition is more academic, apart from rules. I'd argue there are bigger tonal changes within the first edition than between first and second.

                      As for improvements, I think the biggest is the Disciplines. The 2E Disciplines might contain the best version of those powers in any version of Vampire. They really dig into the power fantasy and the horror of being one of the Kindred.



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                      • #12
                        Rose Bailey has said a few times that VtR 2e unofficially started well before 2e was even going to be a thing, as the last few years of VtR supplements were all designed by the principles that lead to VtR 2e's approach.

                        One thing that I think is important to explain about the Disciplines is that they actually make sense as 1-5 rated powers. They're not a collection of powers around a theme forced into the idea of needing each dot to be a better power than the ones before it. They actually feel like a cohesive study of a vampire power that grows in applications over time. That's why there's a lot of internal synergy where higher powers use earlier powers in some way. You don't just get a new Dominate power that falls under the themes of Dominate, you get better at Dominate itself.

                        Another small change that has a big tonal emphasis behind it? All of the Banes (universal like sun light, Clan, and ones you pick up to protect Humanity) are all keyed off of Humanity. This really sells the idea that being a vampire kicks ass and is awesome... at first. As your start to drop those first few dots of Humanity, you start getting kicked harder by Banes and it turns out that the Embrace wasn't what it seemed like at first. High Humanity is, paradoxically, it's own form of power for vampires that can keep it up, since it means they can avoid the perils other vampires face.

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                        • #13
                          I'm gonna take a second to disagree with everyone on the tone, using words from when it Blood and Smoke first came out.

                          Truth be told, if I had to pick the one reason I never liked Requiem, it was it's tone. It was just a little too deep in it's own tragedy.

                          Blood and Smoke is clever, sexy, and stylish. The tragedy is still there, in the subtext. But it's all delivered with smooth smiles, confident strides, celebratory grotesqueness, and blood-stained cool.
                          This is a very true thing. Requiem First was openly deep in the bleak for tone. Requiem Second is more playful, more devil-may-care, and and coyly "in denial" on just how close the bleak really is.


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                          • #14
                            I'm going to be a bit negative here and say that I didn't really like with 2nd edition was, and I claim no special expertise at all on the subject, was that it was more rules. I like the old systems because there were not as many rules to keep track of as in many other systems and the die system was easy. Just roll a number of d10 and count successes. Simple. To me who likes it rules light the new rules got a bit more than what I had wanted. But then again I've only checked through the book so feel free to totally ignore me.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gurkhal View Post
                              I'm going to be a bit negative here and say that I didn't really like with 2nd edition was, and I claim no special expertise at all on the subject, was that it was more rules. I like the old systems because there were not as many rules to keep track of as in many other systems and the die system was easy. Just roll a number of d10 and count successes. Simple. To me who likes it rules light the new rules got a bit more than what I had wanted. But then again I've only checked through the book so feel free to totally ignore me.
                              This is pretty vague. It's not like 2e has stepped away from the basic mechanism of rolling dice and counting successes.


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