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Animalism 5 - Lord of the Land

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  • #16
    Non the less vampires/hunters/wereRats entering in your domain have to face hordes of animals commanded from a safe place... 🤔

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Marcus View Post
      Non the less vampires/hunters/wereRats entering in your domain have to face hordes of animals commanded from a safe place... 🤔
      I think it's reasonable to say that the territory is supposed to be that safe place, which makes turning your territory into a place you can route remote commands to instead of a place you can send remote commands from kind of a backwards outcome.


      Resident Sanguinary Analyst
      Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Satchel View Post
        I think it's reasonable to say that the territory is supposed to be that safe place, which makes turning your territory into a place you can route remote commands to instead of a place you can send remote commands from kind of a backwards outcome.
        Well according to me it's not enterely exact: you have your territory and, within it , you have a secret place where to hide and where to rule your domain from.

        There's a huge difference between facing your enemies (even with -3 penality) with your animals allies, where you can be hurt, and letting your animals fight while you are closed in that very secret cript of that cemetery. It doesn't seem to me just a formal difference.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Marcus View Post

          Well according to me it's not enterely exact: you have your territory and, within it , you have a secret place where to hide and where to rule your domain from.

          There's a huge difference between facing your enemies (even with -3 penality) with your animals allies, where you can be hurt, and letting your animals fight while you are closed in that very secret cript of that cemetery. It doesn't seem to me just a formal difference.
          The difference is in the earlier "leave the territory to do whatever" option -- your link with your familiars is reflected in your ability to command them, and Lord if the Land establishes a place in which you are more powerful, which lasts as long as you remain there.

          Which makes more sense for a bestial kingdom: that you can leave the territory to the dogs when you plan to return or that you can turn your animal spies and agents into heralds and extra eyes?


          Resident Sanguinary Analyst
          Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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          • #20
            The pointless redundancy in your list is #3

            The animals were already issued a command when they arrived at Summon the Hunt. And by the way, once that command is completed or success number of nights passes, they leave. (Or is it. There's conflicting information on that.)

            As for #5. If a vampire is being attacked in their territory, their vitae would be better spent using it to send the intruder or intruders into a blind rage via Feral Infection and set to attack themselves or each other.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by tsusasi View Post
              The pointless redundancy in your list is #3

              The animals were already issued a command when they arrived at Summon the Hunt. And by the way, once that command is completed or success number of nights passes, they leave. (Or is it. There's conflicting information on that.)

              As for #5. If a vampire is being attacked in their territory, their vitae would be better spent using it to send the intruder or intruders into a blind rage via Feral Infection and set to attack themselves or each other.
              About #3 I would say no, because:
              1. While Animalism 5 is active any command lasts indefinitely. So: "stay here" is an endless command
              2. You do not even need to give the commands to stay here. You just need to use summon the hunts to actually allow those animals to stay in your territory as normal.
              3. Using feral infection is an awesome solution that, still, is not riskless if there are several supernatural intruders. Because not anyone is going to fall under its effects (possibly not even one). And you are then exposed to who hasn't fallen under such effect. I would keep it as the last weapon.
              Last edited by Marcus; 03-30-2019, 06:23 AM.

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              • #22
                Okay so animals cannot enter the territory unbidden (paraphrasing) but "Ghoul animals are also exempt"
                It doesn't say YOUR OWN ghoul animals are exempt, just ghoul animals. Glaring weakness baked into the power?

                Also I just noticed that Obfuscate 5 does not require you to evict the current occupants, as does Lord of the Land, so it can be used offensively which makes it SUBSTANTIALLY more powerful than I had originally believed.
                Last edited by Rathamus; 03-29-2019, 09:25 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Marcus View Post

                  About #3 I would say no, because:
                  1. While Animalism 5 is active any command lasts indefinitely. So: "stay here" is an endless command
                  Except the part where the animals have to eat and since prey animals are not permissible targets for Summon the Hunt to be dragged in, they leave the area to eat after one day. Or they starve to death after a few days.

                  2. You do not even need to give the commands to stay here. You just need to use summon the hunts to actually allow those animals to stay in your territory as normal.
                  Which means they leave since they were not issued a command necessitating they stay and the pervasive aura tells them to leave.

                  And see above about the necessity of sustenance.





                  Using feral infection is an awesome solution that, still, is not riskless if there are several supernatural intruders. Because not anyone is going to fall under its effects (possibly not even one). And you are then exposed to who hasn't fell under such effect. I would keep it as the last weapon.
                  In the case of multiple invaders: only one needs to succumb. And trespassers take a penalty to their Res Comp roll of the number of successes to activate Feral infection, a -3 for being in the area uninvited and if they are kindred an additional -2. So with a minimum of -6 to their resistance check (It was usually -9 minimum my character incurred on would be attackers.) I’ll play those odds. And that’s not even adding in vitae contact potential penalties either.

                  And any Gangrel or Ventrue incapable of using Protean or Dominate and relies only on Animalism at rank 5 to defend themself doesn’t get much sympathy from me.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tsusasi View Post

                    Except the part where the animals have to eat and since prey animals are not permissible targets for Summon the Hunt to be dragged in, they leave the area to eat after one day. Or they starve to death after a few days.



                    Which means they leave since they were not issued a command necessitating they stay and the pervasive aura tells them to leave.

                    And see above about the necessity of sustenance.







                    In the case of multiple invaders: only one needs to succumb. And trespassers take a penalty to their Res Comp roll of the number of successes to activate Feral infection, a -3 for being in the area uninvited and if they are kindred an additional -2. So with a minimum of -6 to their resistance check (It was usually -9 minimum my character incurred on would be attackers.) I’ll play those odds. And that’s not even adding in vitae contact potential penalties either.
                    This is actually a good point, but even if not openely specified, I'd consider the Invitation always valid even if they leave the territory to eat. I mean, we can analyze the text word by word finding any "bug" of the game, but any weakness of a text that makes ineffective an effect that is precisely stated seems to me "pointless". By the way anyone can go for wathever interpretation. You can interpret a power that states you can commands animals at any range using rised familiar within your territory as: "you could command any animals at any range whithin territory if they would have not be frightened away by this very same power. Buahaha". Developers are so mean when kidding the players this way areb't they?
                    More over, while it's specified the commands ends after it is acomplished and the animal has exited the territory, it's not specified also invitation should end.
                    And, if we really want to be that punctilious, then just use the command: " you'll be free to leave this territory just to eat then you'll must come back here".
                    But I'll personally don't care about this and I prefer to keep it as I think it is intended without these pointless formalities: animals summoned or accepted to enter the domain are then free to enter back again ubtil the Lord of the Land" does not change his mind about.

                    And whonthe hell here is stating that the gangrel or ventrue just should use animalism 5? I'm just saying that makes an huuuge difference, also thematically, seeing the master of the territory, being able to commands hordes of animals while lying and smiling in a totally different place. This does not means that, in case he'd need he can't go to solve the issue in person using Dominate/protean/whatever.
                    Whit the same reasoing I could also state: Any Davea incapable of using vigor and relies only on Majesty 5 doesn't get much sympathy for me. Or also same story with Obfuscate 5....

                    EDIT: if we want to proceed this way, we could also argue that intruders would not be affected by -3 on the feral infect resisting roll as it's stated that this penality it's just affecting ACTIONS. Resisting rolls are not considered actions.
                    Last edited by Marcus; 03-30-2019, 06:31 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                      EDIT: if we want to proceed this way, we could also argue that intruders would not be affected by -3 on the feral infect resisting roll as it's stated that this penality it's just affecting ACTIONS. Resisting rolls are not considered actions.
                      Resistance are actions.

                      "Resistance — Characters can resist others’ attempts to socially sway them, physically grapple them or even mentally dominate them. Whenever applying such resistance requires a character’s full attention, it is performed as a contested action, but more often it is a reflexive action, allowing the target to also perform an action that turn. " Chronicles of Darkness, page 21


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                      • #26
                        Multipost mistake.


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                        • #27
                          Multipost mistake.


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                          • #28
                            Upon further contemplation, my read has shifted to the "when you and your familiar are in the territory you can benefit from it thus" interpretation — my earlier take was, in retrospect, based overmuch on just the added features and the assumption of a small familiar without much strength or reach. "Your territory strengthens the bond between you and your familiars enough that it can conduct your senses and commands within its bounds" follows a lot more logically when you assume similar utility to the tricks coming out of an Oubliette.


                            Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                            Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                            • #29
                              After rereading the Discipline, it's really quite simple.

                              1. When you create a territory with Lord of the Land, humans, vampires and other supernaturals flee it upon creation, but not animals. If you want to rule that it also makes animals flee when the territory is created, that's fine. It just means the vampire has to put a bit more effort into getting animals to populate his territory through the use of Feral Whispers or Summon the Hunt.

                              2. After the creation, animals from outside of the territory won't enter it out of fear, unless commanded to do so with Feral Whispers or Summon the Hunt.

                              3. When animals are within your territory, all Feral Whisper commands on these animals will last indefinitely, or until the animal leaves the territory, after which they won't re-enter the territory unless you command them to do so with Feral Whispers or Summon the Hunt. As written, the animals won't re-enter your territory once they leave it, but I think it's perfectly reasonable for the ST to decide that animals that are part of your territory and consider it their home, can and will return, while outside animals who have their home elsewhere, will avoid your territory like the plague.

                              4. Finally, for as long as your familiar from Raise the Familiar is within your territory, you can "possess" that familiar and deliver Feral Whisper commands to the animals also within your territory. These commands will, as previously stated, last indefinitely or until the commanded animals leave your territory. My interpretation of this familiar "possession" is that it works much in the same way as Dominate 5 or the Subsume the Lesser Beast Devotion, but with the difference being that Dominate 5 and Subsume the Lesser Beast don't allow you to use any Disciplines under normal circumstances, while this possession of your familiar is specifically used for the purpose of delivering Feral Whisper commands to other animals on your territory. Personally I'd also allow the vampire to just use this ability to spy on intruders within her territory, by possessing his familiar and stalking the intruders with it, while issuing commands to the other animals around when needed.
                              Last edited by Ventrue Life; 04-02-2019, 09:40 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                                Upon further contemplation, my read has shifted to the "when you and your familiar are in the territory you can benefit from it thus" interpretation — my earlier take was, in retrospect, based overmuch on just the added features and the assumption of a small familiar without much strength or reach. "Your territory strengthens the bond between you and your familiars enough that it can conduct your senses and commands within its bounds" follows a lot more logically when you assume similar utility to the tricks coming out of an Oubliette.
                                That's actually my very same reading

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