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Non-Discipline Clashes of Wills for Vampires: What Attribute to use?

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  • Non-Discipline Clashes of Wills for Vampires: What Attribute to use?

    Within VtR itself, Clashes of Wills can pretty much only happen when Disciplines are at odds, which obviously then causes a Clash of Discipline + Blood Potency for both sides. The only exception are Predatory Aura conflicts which are described in details as to how they should be handled. However, in crossover it may happen that inherent vampiric abilities have to Clash with the effects of other supernaturals. For example if the target of a Lash Out has special mental defenses or someone tries to temper with or undo the Vinculum.
    In other lines, especially those in which powers have no dot ratings, this issue is resolved by making the Clash a roll of Attribute + Supernatural Advantage. I think it is a good idea to apply this to the aforementioned scenarios in VtR, but it raises the question just what Attribute to use for a given situation. These innate abilities also cannot always be directly linked specifically to Physical, Mental or Social Attributes, muddying the situation further.

    Currently I am considering these alternatives:
    1. A Kindred uses the Favored Attribute chosen at character creation + Blood Potency. The rationale being that this is the Attribute that expresses their Clan and Kindred identity the most.
    2. A Kindred uses their highest Power Attribute + Blood Potency. The Predatory Aura rules imply a special connection for vampires to Power Attributes, the same way how Changelings and Demons are connected to Finesse Attributes and Mages to Resistance Attributes (Nimbus, Favored Attribute).
    I suppose for Clashes caused by Lashing Out with the Predatory Aura, the associated Power Attribute + Blood Potency should be used, essentially rolling that dice pool twice.

    What do you ladies and gentlemen think?


    Politeness is the lubricant of social intercourse.

  • #2
    While the innate abilities of Kindred aren't always linked to particular attribute categories, the way the vampire's acting or responding usually can be. In Vampire, everything supernatural should correspond to something you can see, hear, feel, etc.

    With that in mind:
    - Rolls against attempts to assert social dominance or establish mental control use a Lashing Out roll.
    - If the vampire acts first (or simultaneously) with a supernatural characteristic or ability that doesn't have a dot rating, roll Blood Potency + [Power attribute corresponding to what the vampire's doing]
    - If the vampire acts second or reacts with a supernatural characteristic or ability that doesn't have a dot rating, roll Blood Potency + [Resistance attribute corresponding to what the vampire's doing to resist]


    Cavaliers of Mars Creator
    Retired CofD Lead

    Check out my guides to Vampire and my indie games!

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Rose Bailey View Post
      While the innate abilities of Kindred aren't always linked to particular attribute categories, the way the vampire's acting or responding usually can be. In Vampire, everything supernatural should correspond to something you can see, hear, feel, etc.

      With that in mind:
      - Rolls against attempts to assert social dominance or establish mental control use a Lashing Out roll.
      - If the vampire acts first (or simultaneously) with a supernatural characteristic or ability that doesn't have a dot rating, roll Blood Potency + [Power attribute corresponding to what the vampire's doing]
      - If the vampire acts second or reacts with a supernatural characteristic or ability that doesn't have a dot rating, roll Blood Potency + [Resistance attribute corresponding to what the vampire's doing to resist]
      Hey Rose, thanks for the developer input.

      Just to get your input on a specific example, what would you suggest rolling for maintaining a Vinculum of yours someone is tempering with? I am not entirely sure whether to put that into the second (the Vinculum was performed first and specifically placed by the vampire) or third category (it is a reaction to the Vinculum being affected) and whether to consider it a physical (after all, it is in the blood) or mental aspect for the purposes of the Attribute chosen.

      On a related note, if I may: Would you consider the ability to sense blood and life with Kindred Senses as supernatural enough to invoke Clashes against living entities trying to hide themselves or should it be filed under "mundane perception" (i. e. you require Auspex to Clash such effects)?

      Thanks so much for your input!


      Politeness is the lubricant of social intercourse.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by saibot View Post
        Just to get your input on a specific example, what would you suggest rolling for maintaining a Vinculum of yours someone is tempering with? I am not entirely sure whether to put that into the second (the Vinculum was performed first and specifically placed by the vampire) or third category (it is a reaction to the Vinculum being affected) and whether to consider it a physical (after all, it is in the blood) or mental aspect for the purposes of the Attribute chosen.
        You could do either, but I'd call it BP + Intelligence.

        Originally posted by saibot View Post
        JustOn a related note, if I may: Would you consider the ability to sense blood and life with Kindred Senses as supernatural enough to invoke Clashes against living entities trying to hide themselves or should it be filed under "mundane perception" (i. e. you require Auspex to Clash such effects)?
        Anything a vampire does that a human can't is supernatural. There are gray areas in terms of setting metaphysics, but as far as rules are concerned, it's supernatural.


        Cavaliers of Mars Creator
        Retired CofD Lead

        Check out my guides to Vampire and my indie games!

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