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  • #16
    Originally posted by Malus View Post
    Pfft. Nah. The embrace detaches you because it displays your inhumanity beyond a shadow of a doubt by bringing someone who should be dead back.
    Doubt that. If that's the case then using disciplines would be an instant detachment not unlike the Embrace, besides you can do it accidentally and only risk a roll when you find out. It's when it's a deliberate choice to damn another and slice up a part of your soul to the altar of the Beast is when you well and truly fucked up.

    I don't think the "power trip" is what causes the detachment, that's a bit of a shallow look at it.

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    • #17
      It's also worth noting that the Embrace has always been described as painful, hence why in 1e it costed a Willpower dot. In 2e a Humanity dot is enough to convey all the pain, trauma and inhumanity of creating a vampire.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Malus View Post
        Pfft. Nah. The embrace detaches you because it displays your inhumanity beyond a shadow of a doubt by bringing someone who should be dead back.
        You mean like CPR?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by tsusasi View Post

          You mean like CPR?
          CPR doesn't turns you into an undead abomination.

          @shawarbaaz: check out the detachment examples.

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          • #20
            I can't remember where the post is, but somewhere on the forum, Olivia Hill was explaining why the embrace is an instant humanity loss (as opposed to humanity 0 breaking point like diablerie).

            She said something along the lines of "When you embrace, you are choosing to kill thousands of people."

            My takeaway is that you took a living person and made them into something that eats people. You can rationalize it however you want, but you just turned someone into a monster.

            Shawarbaaz, using Disciplines to take away consent is a breaking point.

            Someone pointed out above that humanity loss doesn't necessarily happen with posthumous embrace. Presumably, the CPR analogy is more apt here.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Malus View Post

              CPR doesn't turns you into an undead abomination.

              @shawarbaaz: check out the detachment examples.
              But it is a ritual like series of actions, when performed correctly, can often bring someone back to life who should be dead.

              I can think of a few odd cases where Humanity loss would really not be automatic. And mechanically it CAN be turned into an action that permits a Humanity check vs. Humanity loss.
              But personally I use it as written because I happen to concur with the notion that you don't "accidentally" embrace someone and it's some pretty warped thought processes to enable you to justify to yourself that it's okay to damn someone else to an eternal cycle of exploitation and predation of other sentient beings.

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              • #22
                Yeah that's basically what I meant, creating a vampire means creating another monster who will now have to eat people to survive, you might as well have killed them all with your own hands.

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                • #23
                  I suppose the reason creating a revenant on accident isn't an automatic Humanity loss while uplifting a revenant is, might be explained by the fact that a vampire's Clan is tied to the Strix. Vampires existed before the Strix, but it's the Strix who gave them their Clans and Beasts, or so the story goes. If you "gift" your Clan to someone else, you're doing the Strix's work, you're continuing their legacy. And that, that stains your Humanity beyond a shadow of a doubt (no pun intended).

                  At least, if you believe the story about the Strix giving the first vampires their Clans and Beasts. Do you?

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                  • #24
                    Now that I think about it…there's also the fact that if you use Ordo hacks to mass-Embrace, every childe has a 1/10 chance of waking up with no Humanity at all, only the Beast.

                    And back in 1e at least, the Owls could create draugar and larvae easily, but needed to go to much greater lengths to make actual vampires (like what allegedly created the Julii).

                    What if the sacrifice of Humanity is intentional, and it's what protects the remnants of the corpse's mind from the raw Bestial power that's suddenly flooding through it? Perhaps accidental Revenants are houseruled to have only a 50/50 (or 30/70 because dice) chance of waking up "properly" and the rest become larvae, because their Sire didn't make that sacrifice for them—and the risk of trying to Embrace without pouring that effort of will into it is that, 70% of the time, your would-be-childe will rise up as a draugr whose last human thoughts were that you, the person it can now track perfectly through blood sympathy, killed it?

                    In this case, uplifting a Revenant costs Humanity, not because it's an inhumane act, but because you're intentionally sacrificing a bit of the metaphysical defense you've built up against your Beast, in order to give it to your new childe—it may be a humane and even morally good thing to do, but you're still poking a hole in that bulwark, and that has consequences.

                    (This is pure speculation, btw, and would require some changes to RAW to support it, such as not burning Humanity if you discover an accidental Embrace after the fact, and adding a risk of Revenants arising as draugar or larvae.)

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                    • #25
                      If I remember right, in late 1e draugr can only embrace larvae. There's an in-character piece in 2e about rumors of revenants puking black blood onto their victims, turning them into revenants (which I read as being a reference to larvae and draugr reproducing). Then there's that line in Wicked Dead about the common thread between kindred being a connection Humanity. And the lower your humanity, the higher the probability of creating a revenant.

                      Anyway, my point is that I do think /having/ humanity at the time of embrace is necessary to create a kindred. Maybe the vampire's humanity suppresses the Beast in their blood. Maybe the Beast has something to do with how infectious their blood is.

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