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  • #31
    Thanks Satchel! So is the means for creating them tied to a ritual that falls within a certain sphere of blood magic? Or is it Devotion or Merit-based?


    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
    Satchel pretty much sums it up.

    Here's what the intro in the book gives us:

    So, one might describe VtM's gargoyles as something between Prometheans and a Fetch constructed by fae to pass for human beings they kidnap, one might say. Or maybe i exagerate things a bit, but i do feel the comparison is a valid one and so brought it up.Certainly worth the read.

    Specially when one considers how different heritages, like being Pijavica or having supernatural merits particularly tied to blood or fertility like of Rose & Thorn or Undead Menses among others, might add new factors to the equation.
    Right. Ok, so the impression I get is that they are fully customizable servants, limited only by the imagination of the creator and their time and materials available (mostly Vitae, presumably).

    I can see quite a few parallels to Birthing the God in Cruac. Do Gargoyles get instilled with various supernatural powers (Disciplines, Merits, whatever) on creation? Are they potentially sentient in the sense of being playable?

    To this last question, I suppose the clarifying point is "do they self-generate Willpower, implying en-soulment has occurred?"

    In addition to Pijavica, supernatural Merits, fertility rites (you could stop at Cruac if you wished) and Dhampir-spawning conception, I can imagine a combination ritual that forms and "births" a Gargoyle in... um... more traditional configurations--at least to external understanding.

    People get creative when they understand a bit of occult lore....

    --Khanwulf

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
      Thanks Satchel! So is the means for creating them tied to a ritual that falls within a certain sphere of blood magic? Or is it Devotion or Merit-based?
      It's an extended Resolve + Occult + Blood Potency roll that theoretically any vampire with Blood Potency 2+ and access to the appropriate resources for their target creation can attempt.


      Resident Lore-Hound
      Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Satchel View Post
        It's an extended Resolve + Occult + Blood Potency roll that theoretically any vampire with Blood Potency 2+ and access to the appropriate resources for their target creation can attempt.

        Wow. So basically if you know how to do this (Occult) have the will to do so (Resolve) and the supernatural uumph, then you can stamp out a servant critter. Interesting.

        That means Animalism's ability to do something similar with an undead familiar is a specialized and simplified application of the principle. We can then very easily extrapolate to necromancy, for example, or even to endowing figments of Nightmare with great agency--if only within the target's mind.

        --Khanwulf

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
          Thanks Satchel! So is the means for creating them tied to a ritual that falls within a certain sphere of blood magic? Or is it Devotion or Merit-based?




          Right. Ok, so the impression I get is that they are fully customizable servants, limited only by the imagination of the creator and their time and materials available (mostly Vitae, presumably).
          Pretty much that. They are divided in ranks, that affect their complexity, power and cost, but there's room to play with ideas in the samples. The book defines a ceiling of max rank = half the master's BP, but frankly i feel this is unecessarily stringent for what you actually get out of them. Don't think max rank = master BP (up to 5 without actual blood magic) would terribly unbalance things based on the samples given.

          Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
          I can see quite a few parallels to Birthing the God in Cruac. Do Gargoyles get instilled with various supernatural powers (Disciplines, Merits, whatever) on creation? Are they potentially sentient in the sense of being playable?

          To this last question, I suppose the clarifying point is "do they self-generate Willpower, implying en-soulment has occurred?"
          No, unfortunately no disciplines or merits that i can see in the samples, but they do have Supernatural Aspects, dread powers of their own so to speak, some inspired by disciplines, other quite independent. Playing by RaW their intelligence is limited and have no will of their own but the fluff in the rolls does open room for the posssibility of greater self-awareness and/or volition (or at least malice toward the master or its designated allies).

          Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
          In addition to Pijavica, supernatural Merits, fertility rites (you could stop at Cruac if you wished) and Dhampir-spawning conception, I can imagine a combination ritual that forms and "births" a Gargoyle in... um... more traditional configurations--at least to external understanding.

          People get creative when they understand a bit of occult lore....
          Indeed. I ask myself what bringing the threnodies from Blood Sorcery might or not add to the mix.
          Last edited by Baaldam; 10-10-2019, 12:44 PM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

            Pretty much that. They are divided in ranks, that affect their complexity, power and cost, but there's room to play with ideas in the samples. The book defines a ceiling of max rank = half the master's BP, but frankly i feel this is unecessarily stringent for what you actually get out of them. Don't think max rank = master BP (up to 5 without actual blood magic) would terribly unbalance things based on the samples given.



            No, unfortunately no disciplines or merits that i can see in the samples, but they do have Supernatural Aspects, dread powers of their own so to speak, some inspired by disciplines, other quite independent. Playing by RaW their intelligence is limited and have no will of their own but the fluff in the rolls does open room for the posssibility of greater self-awareness and/or volition (or at least malice toward the master or its designated allies).



            Indeed. I ask myself what bringing the threnodies from Blood Sorcery might or not add to the mix.
            Well clearly there is now at least enough wiggle room for these things to be made into whatever kind of antagonist or even faction that the Storyteller needs, with only minimal hand-waving. Vampire used to be quite deterministic: you put in the blood, you get out the effect (Embrace, ghoul). Now the factors involved amount to such a nuanced expression of will and circumstance that not even an elder can count on what may happen.

            This is fine.

            As an example, if you want an early version of Ordo Dracul sorcerers to set up shop in East-Central Europe and go to war with the resident Pijavica, now they really can develop a "race" of semi-living guardians empowered by the Blood. I'm sure nothing will go wrong. Nope!

            To your specific point on the "limits" the book provides, I've increasingly become convinced that the way to push the envelope is to issue supernatural merits to PCs/NPCs and let them whilly-nilly do what they want... assuming there is enough in-game excuse, of course.


            --Khanwulf

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post

              Well clearly there is now at least enough wiggle room for these things to be made into whatever kind of antagonist or even faction that the Storyteller needs, with only minimal hand-waving. Vampire used to be quite deterministic: you put in the blood, you get out the effect (Embrace, ghoul). Now the factors involved amount to such a nuanced expression of will and circumstance that not even an elder can count on what may happen.

              This is fine.

              As an example, if you want an early version of Ordo Dracul sorcerers to set up shop in East-Central Europe and go to war with the resident Pijavica, now they really can develop a "race" of semi-living guardians empowered by the Blood. I'm sure nothing will go wrong. Nope!
              It doesn't even have to be OD sorcerers - check out the Vedma bloodline (ironically, in the OD book), for a group of kindred that i can imagine (re)creating by accident (or ill-intent) something akin to the Strix.

              Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
              To your specific point on the "limits" the book provides, I've increasingly become convinced that the way to push the envelope is to issue supernatural merits to PCs/NPCs and let them whilly-nilly do what they want... assuming there is enough in-game excuse, of course.
              Now i'm imagining a vampire with the Of Rose & Thorn merit - that let's you use Animalism to influence/enhance plants - making a "flower/wicker gargoyle" with materials harvested of mandragora garden. Damn, i have a Gangrel elder (of late Priscus and OD Primogen) who might do exactly that if something ever happened to his bruxa (daughter of phobos) wife....

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

                It doesn't even have to be OD sorcerers - check out the Vedma bloodline (ironically, in the OD book), for a group of kindred that i can imagine (re)creating by accident (or ill-intent) something akin to the Strix.
                Sure. I was actually making a thinly-veiled reference to the Tremere story in WoD, and how the Omen War progressed.


                Now i'm imagining a vampire with the Of Rose & Thorn merit - that let's you use Animalism to influence/enhance plants - making a "flower/wicker gargoyle" with materials harvested of mandragora garden. Damn, i have a Gangrel elder (of late Priscus and OD Primogen) who might do exactly that if something ever happened to his bruxa (daughter of phobos) wife....
                Mandragora maiden of flowers and thorns? Damn she could probably suck the blood out of you from a hug.

                It's like Pet Cemetery with plants (and loved-ones). What could possibly go wrong with combining your mandragora garden and the burial ground "wyrms nest" that Ordo fop keeps harping on?


                --Khanwulf

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                • #38
                  Since we’re already safely off topic I feel safe returning to the earlier debate about whether or not the Strix created Crúac by pointing out that if the theory that they come from some lower depth without life then creating a form of magic that requires sending life to their home makes perfect sense.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
                    Since we’re already safely off topic I feel safe returning to the earlier debate about whether or not the Strix created Crúac by pointing out that if the theory that they come from some lower depth without life then creating a form of magic that requires sending life to their home makes perfect sense.
                    Come from vs assumed residence within.

                    Create a form of magic vs co-opt a form of magic.

                    The Strix do possession and transformation. What if that kind of pattern is mapped onto other elements of the Strix? They don't seem like a creative force in the (dark) universe, after all.

                    But yes, they would have an interest in directing a stream of life-energy into their hollow plane of "home". Though again they also seem distinctly comfortable hanging around the regular plane of existence.


                    --Khanwulf

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