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  • Lay Open the mind

    Hi,

    How exactly is a deep memory defined? If the player want to uncover the whole youth of the target is this acceptable? What about the last night? Or with memories is something more restricted to specific objects such as: memories about father, about school, ecc..

    It's not really clear to me what should be allowed and what should not.
    It's too easy asking for all the memories related to his childood because the PC will spot in an istant all the secrets of years and years and also it's a too huge amount of information to process at once.
    Do you allow also: memory of that particular night?

    How do you rule it in general?

  • #2
    I generally say, a "deep memory" is something that would take deliberate time and effort to consciously dredge up. "What I was doing five minutes ago" usually isn't a deep memory, nor is "the sound of my mother's voice", or "the night someone I loved got murdered in front of me": all of those can be brought to mind without much deliberate effort. But "my classmates from third grade" or "my tenth birthday" would usually be deep memories, because they're not "close to the surface"; they usually take time and concentration to bring up.

    As for duration, my rule of thumb is, you get as much as they could remember while the power is in effect. Even if you sat me down and talked to me for an hour, I couldn't go through all the memories of my childhood in that time: there are just too many. So I would say an hour of Lay Open the Mind work couldn't get all of that either. But a vivid scene might take only a few seconds to come to mind, so you could get that in a single turn.

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    • #3
      I got your overall point but then how you decide what you should or should not tell to tour character?

      Comment


      • #4
        Depends how long they're willing to take, and what specifically they're looking for. If they look for "childhood memories" in thirty seconds, they'll get thirty seconds' worth of whatever the character's strongest/most lasting/most important childhood memories are. Might be something traumatic, might be something character-defining, might be a vague general impression. But something that fits into thirty seconds.

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        • #5
          Keep in mind that the memory that is being dragged up is experienced in an instance. Just like how we can sometimes remember entire evenings in a matter of real-time minutes, so too can Lay Open The Mind.

          The way I see it, each memory you can get is a scene in and of itself, with a start, middle and end. if a player uses Lay Open The Mind and ask me for a memory, I will describe the memory as if I'm describing a scene, and once the scene has played out, that memory is done and the player then has to choose if he wishes to spend Vitae to drag up more memories (resulting in more scenes). An exceptional success on Lay Open The Mind simply allows you to get as many scenes as you have dots in Auspex before you start paying Vitae for additional scenes.


          Now here's an interesting question:

          If a Mekhet drags up an entire memory from his victim, lets say the victim is named Johnny, and is a football player. The memory the Mekhet wanted to see if of the victim's first time winning gold, you could argue it then becomes part of the Mekhet's memory as well. Does that mean another Auspex user can then get Johnny's memory of him winning the his first gold cup from the Mekhet through Lay Open The Mind?

          Or say I use Lay Open The Mind on a rape victim to get the memory of the assault, could I then use Lay Open The Mind to impart the memory of the assault to someone else, for example the perpetrator, to make him/her witness his/her own vile deeds from the perspective of the rape victim?

          I would say yes, but I'm curious what you guys think.
          Last edited by Tomorrow's Nobody; 09-03-2019, 10:10 AM.

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          • #6
            I'd say no because
            1. Memories aren't infallible. People tend to remember things as better or worse than they were as well as mix details up. (Deja vu for example.) The Mekhet gets what the person remembers, not necessarily what happened. Nor do they have any means of telling the difference.
            2. Inserting memories is the purview of Dominate, not Auspex.

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            • #7
              tsusasi

              Inserting memories is most definitely also the purview of Auspex.
              With Auspex, the victim experiences the memories in a sort of flash-back-kind-of-way, and if the memories he is witnessing aren't his own, he probably knows that what he is seeing aren't his own memories.
              With Dominate, you can alter someone else's memories, even make people forget things, but not much else with regards to memories.

              The vampire’s thoughts align with the victim’s mind,
              and remain connected for the rest of the scene. He hears her
              thoughts as though she were speaking them aloud. People don’t
              think in complete sentences, but the vampire can discern the
              victim’s precise mood and intention, and some snippets of her
              current motivation and considerations. He can also project
              thoughts, either speaking directly into the victim’s thoughts,
              or depositing a mental image or memory.

              By focusing, the vampire can drag up a full memory from the
              victim, including things that the victim has forgotten or that
              were suppressed by magic (though doing so takes a Clash of
              Wills). He experiences all of the memory in an instant, with all
              five senses. If he chooses to transmit that memory to the victim,
              he can inflict a Condition like Guilty, Inspired, or Shaken as
              appropriate (p. 302 and p. 305). Uncovering further memories
              costs 1 Vitae per memory.
              Also, I'm not sure if the argument you make in point 1 applies to Auspex, because Auspex allows you to drag up full memories, even if the owner of the memory has forgotten them. If forgetting something doesn't negatively affect Lay Open The Mind, then I don't think misremembering something would affect it either.

              The thing I'm really not sure about is if you can, after dragging up someone else's memory, then impart that memory on someone else, or have that memory dragged up from you by another Auspex user.
              Last edited by Tomorrow's Nobody; 09-03-2019, 11:12 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by tsusasi View Post
                I'd say no because
                1. Memories aren't infallible. People tend to remember things as better or worse than they were as well as mix details up. (Deja vu for example.) The Mekhet gets what the person remembers, not necessarily what happened. Nor do they have any means of telling the difference.
                2. Inserting memories is the purview of Dominate, not Auspex.
                Actually Lay Open the Mind can drag up also forgotten/modified memories. So I'd say your point 1 is not completely correct.
                I agree that you can't implant new memories. You can just show him those memories but the subject will keep them as external. Otherwise Auspex will have the same effect of dominate. It's much more: "I have this scene in my mind which I can't rid of"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Marcus View Post

                  Actually Lay Open the Mind can drag up also forgotten/modified memories. So I'd say your point 1 is not completely correct.
                  I agree that you can't implant new memories. You can just show him those memories but the subject will keep them as external. Otherwise Auspex will have the same effect of dominate. It's much more: "I have this scene in my mind which I can't rid of"

                  The Mekhet focuses on bringing her thoughts in line with
                  her victim. He begins to think like her, and soon hears her
                  thoughts in his mind. By concentrating and gently changing his
                  own thoughts, he can project ideas or memories into the victim’s
                  mind. With a little practice, the vampire can communicate
                  without words, or project full memories to overwhelm the
                  victim’s senses.
                  He can even stimulate memories by thinking of
                  a time, place, or emotion that causes the victim to remember —
                  even if the victim had blocked it out or had it removed by magic.
                  The vampire’s thoughts align with the victim’s mind,
                  and remain connected for the rest of the scene. He hears her
                  thoughts as though she were speaking them aloud. People don’t
                  think in complete sentences, but the vampire can discern the
                  victim’s precise mood and intention, and some snippets of her
                  current motivation and considerations. He can also project
                  thoughts, either speaking directly into the victim’s thoughts,
                  or depositing a mental image or memory.

                  By focusing, the vampire can drag up a full memory from the
                  victim, including things that the victim has forgotten or that
                  were suppressed by magic (though doing so takes a Clash of
                  Wills). He experiences all of the memory in an instant, with all
                  five senses. If he chooses to transmit that memory to the victim,
                  he can inflict a Condition like Guilty, Inspired, or Shaken as
                  appropriate (p. 302 and p. 305). Uncovering further memories
                  costs 1 Vitae per memory.

                  It doesn't say that the projected memories have to be the victim's own memories. In fact, it specifically says that Lay Open The Mind allows you to project your thoughts into the victims mind. So it stands to reason you can also project your memories into the victim's mind, right?

                  I'd like to hear a dev's comment on this. Rose Bailey ?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It's worth noting that Guilty, Inspired, and Shaken are all relatively "harmless" conditions compared to False Memories. The fact that False Memories isn't listed as an example makes me think it can't be inflicted. Which basically means Auspex can't replace Dominate for rewriting memories: you can transmit thoughts, but they're not integrated into the victim's own memories and won't ever be mistaken for their own.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Nothing in your snippet says the Mekhet gets to dictate the specifics of a memory or the level of detail recalled, that Auspex grants total unerring recall to the victim, or the victim can't or doesn't realize another presence is in their mind. Nor does it say that the user gains those memories as their own. Last week, I forgot my daughter's kindergarten teacher's name but when my daughter told me her name, I instantly recalled what her teacher looked like and also remembered a conversation I had with her about the reptile house on a school field trip to the zoo, which had nothing to do with why I wanted to know her teacher's name. Viola, forgotten memory recalled but devoid of lots of other minute details such as not remembering seeing someone specific at the gift shop at noon. If they DID get total recall it would be stupid because the Mekhet would be bogged down with irrelevant details like EVERYTHING they smelled, the taste in their mouth, every random thought that crossed the person's mind, everything they heard or saw or felt. Or thought they experienced. The Mekhet also doesn't get the memory they drudged up as their own, they get the memory of personally violating someone to drudge up details of someone else's memory.

                      2. Projecting one's personal thoughts and memories is not the same as altering someone else's memory or issuing commands. There's a big difference between mentally intruding on someone's mind to telepathically say "You will give me your car and not remember owning it." Followed by a mental projection of a bright red 2019 Chevy Silverado parked at a car lot using Auspex versus using Dominate to saying out loud "Give me your car." And short phrases to reinforce they don't remember even owning the car. The one using Auspex is going to be told in no uncertain terms to fuck off and the victim does NOT forget they own a truck. The one using Dominate gets the keys and the pink slip of a new truck.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Draconis View Post
                        It's worth noting that Guilty, Inspired, and Shaken are all relatively "harmless" conditions compared to False Memories. The fact that False Memories isn't listed as an example makes me think it can't be inflicted. Which basically means Auspex can't replace Dominate for rewriting memories: you can transmit thoughts, but they're not integrated into the victim's own memories and won't ever be mistaken for their own.
                        Indeed, and I wasn't saying that or asking about overwriting or creating false memories. I am well aware that if the Auspex user were to share his own memories with the target, the target knows the memory he is experiencing aren't his own, hence False Memories or Amnesia does not apply.

                        I was merely curious if an Auspex user who dragged up someone's memory, can then have that memory dragged up from himself by another Auspex user.

                        Say I drag up a memory of you getting robbed. I technically now have a memory of your memory of you getting robbed. Theoretically, another Auspex user could now drag up my memory of your memory of you getting robbed.
                        Last edited by Tomorrow's Nobody; 09-03-2019, 04:19 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tomorrow's Nobody View Post
                          Indeed, and I wasn't saying that or asking about overwriting or creating false memories. I am well aware that if the Auspex user were to share his own memories with the target, the target knows the memory he is experiencing aren't his own, hence False Memories or Amnesia does not apply.

                          I was merely curious if an Auspex user who dragged up someone's memory, can then have that memory dragged up from himself by another Auspex user.

                          Say I drag up a memory of you getting robbed. I technically now have a memory of your memory of you getting robbed. Theoretically, another Auspex user could now drag up my memory of your memory of you getting robbed.
                          I would say it's Bob's memory of experiencing the memory of Alice getting robbed, which is a nitpicky difference but a significant one ("show me your worst trauma" wouldn't bring up other people's memories unless the Auspex-usage itself was especially traumatic).

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