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Origins of Theban Sorcery?

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  • Origins of Theban Sorcery?

    What do you think of the idea of the angel Amoniel who taught Longinus the secrets of Theban Sorcery being a Supernal entity from the Aether? I read in Imperial Mysteries that the old gods of myth were actually beings from the Supernal Realms, and angels are kinda like gods...


    It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done... Sidney Carton’s last line before he goes to the guillotine to save Lucie

  • #2
    Entirely possible.

    I lean more towards Messenger of the God Machine. I imagine a lot is going to depend on how favorably the individual thinks of the Lancea et Sanctum, with less favorable ones making it less and less a 'traditional' angel.

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    • #3
      It might have been a Supernal entity showing vampires how to manipulate the Lie in various intricate and inscrutable ways.

      It might have been a Messenger from the G-M, setting up a cult that it would need in the far distant future for unknown reasons.

      It might have been the Paternoster Ministry, seeing an existing cult and realizing it could be useful for their cause if they shaped it in the right way.

      It might have been an Infernal, based on some of the descriptions of the angels in the Testament.

      It might have been a messenger from G#d Himself, the scary powerful Abrahamic one.

      It might have been a couple of early Christian vampires discovering an ancient elder's resting place in Egypt, containing details of an ancient type of magic used by the Cult of Amon.


      Personally, I like the theory that it was an old forgotten type of blood sorcery that Daniel rediscovered and rebranded as "holy miracles" (because of some plot hooks in AB/AM, and some controversial lines in the Testament itself, which say that sorcery is bad and forbidden and shouldn't be used by true Sanctified). Paternoster and others (vampiric and otherwise) may then have tried to twist the rapidly-growing cult to their own ends, with varying degrees of success.

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      • #4
        I think it was in Ancient Mysteries (could have been Bloodline), but it has been hinted at that the stash of Rituals/rites that Amoniel led Longinus too resemble the blood sorcery used by the Cult of Ra. To the point that when the associated bloodline wakes up in the modern day they claim that the Sanctified stole their secrets and magic.

        I always get warm fuzzies when I remember that the "angel" just showed them where the magic was; didn't teach them, didn't explain, didn't claim it as a divine work. Just led them to where it was hidden.


        Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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        • #5
          Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
          I always get warm fuzzies when I remember that the "angel" just showed them where the magic was; didn't teach them, didn't explain, didn't claim it as a divine work. Just led them to where it was hidden.
          Sounds like the early LeS might have just followed some jerk into a cave and, lucky accident, he happened to be keeping tablets there. Like, "Hey that old loner dude doesn't seem to have anyone to miss him. Let's eat him once he's out of sight."
          Last edited by DubiousRuffian; 10-22-2019, 10:53 AM.

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          • #6
            The theory presented in Ancient Bloodlines/Mysteries is that the angel Amoniel used to be worshipped by the Egyptian Kindred as Amun-Ra (more specifically, the Cult of Ra who used Theban Sorcery long before LeS was formed). I.e. that the early Lancea et Sanctum merely reinterpreted (what the Egyptian Kindred thought of as) Amun-Ra according to their own beliefs, as an angel of the Christian/Longinian god. From what I've gathered, Amoniel has only been mentioned in connection with Theban Sorcery so if the theory is correct then "Amoniel" is some sort of entity directly connected to or invested in Theban Sorcery.


            Bloodline: The Stygians
            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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            • #7
              Tessie that totally ties into my theory! If Amoniel was once worshipped as Amun-Ra, he's VERY likely to be a Supernal entity (again, based on what I read in Imperial Mysteries).

              ​How are Ancient Bloodlines and Ancient Mysteries? Are they worth buying? Which is better?

              Thanks


              It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done... Sidney Carton’s last line before he goes to the guillotine to save Lucie

              Comment


              • #8
                Where are the fragments of the account of Longinus' discovery of Theban located, and in which order might you suggest reading them?

                I'd like to get a clear idea of players involved in this. It seems that vamps aside from Longinus were involved and I just haven't dug in yet from lack of time.


                --Khanwulf

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
                  Where are the fragments of the account of Longinus' discovery of Theban located, and in which order might you suggest reading them?

                  I'd like to get a clear idea of players involved in this. It seems that vamps aside from Longinus were involved and I just haven't dug in yet from lack of time.


                  --Khanwulf
                  So! A super-over-simplified history of things, according to Lancea scholars and unreliable sources:
                  • In 33 CE, Longinus kills Jesus and is turned into the first (?) vampire
                  • Longinus creates some childer (including the Monachus) and they all preach his new Gospel of Damnation
                  • The Testament at this point includes some lines saying rituals and magic are bad and forbidden
                  • The cult becomes alarmingly popular in Rome, as far as heresies go; the Camarilla doesn't really like this
                  • The Camarilla starts trying to snuff it out over the next few hundred years
                  • Longinus himself disappears somewhere within this span; nobody knows why or where
                  • In 241 CE, the angel Amoniel appears to the Monachus and his followers, leading them to an ancient crypt under Thebes where they find Strange Magic Things
                  • One of them, a Mekhet named Daniel, figures out how to use this magic, and takes horrific revenge against the covenant's enemies with it
                  • The lines about "don't use ritual magic" are quietly removed from the Testament
                  • Between their new scary magic powers, and the rising popularity of Christianity among mortals, this heresy becomes stronger and stronger
                  • Eventually it survives when the Camarilla doesn't

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Draconis View Post

                    So! A super-over-simplified history of things, according to Lancea scholars and unreliable sources:
                    • In 33 CE, Longinus kills Jesus and is turned into the first (?) vampire
                    • Longinus creates some childer (including the Monachus) and they all preach his new Gospel of Damnation
                    • The Testament at this point includes some lines saying rituals and magic are bad and forbidden
                    • The cult becomes alarmingly popular in Rome, as far as heresies go; the Camarilla doesn't really like this
                    • The Camarilla starts trying to snuff it out over the next few hundred years
                    • Longinus himself disappears somewhere within this span; nobody knows why or where
                    • In 241 CE, the angel Amoniel appears to the Monachus and his followers, leading them to an ancient crypt under Thebes where they find Strange Magic Things
                    • One of them, a Mekhet named Daniel, figures out how to use this magic, and takes horrific revenge against the covenant's enemies with it
                    • The lines about "don't use ritual magic" are quietly removed from the Testament
                    • Between their new scary magic powers, and the rising popularity of Christianity among mortals, this heresy becomes stronger and stronger
                    • Eventually it survives when the Camarilla doesn't
                    However, Requiem 2e gives a different account: Amoniel leads Daniel alone to a cavern under Thebes where he finds Strange Magic Things, which he records and passes onto the others.


                    Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
                      Where are the fragments of the account of Longinus' discovery of Theban located, and in which order might you suggest reading them?
                      The Lancea Sanctum Covenant book. Specifically Chapter 1: The History of the Lancea Sanctum. (Though as mentioned it wasn't Longinus personally who was lead to the caves. At that point he had long bummed off doing his own thing.)


                      Originally posted by Draconis View Post
                      In 33 CE, Longinus kills Jesus and is turned into the first (?) vampire
                      Longinus being the first vampire is only believed by the most ignorant Kindred. Lancea as an organisation has never claimed he was the first.

                      Originally posted by Draconis View Post
                      The Testament at this point includes some lines saying rituals and magic are bad and forbidden
                      [...]
                      The lines about "don't use ritual magic" are quietly removed from the Testament
                      I thought Lancea doctrine made it pretty clear that Theban "Sorcery" are miracles, not magic, thus no reason to change the Testament. In fact, changing it would kinda admit that Theban Sorcery is magic.


                      Bloodline: The Stygians
                      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                        I thought Lancea doctrine made it pretty clear that Theban "Sorcery" are miracles, not magic, thus no reason to change the Testament. In fact, changing it would kinda admit that Theban Sorcery is magic.
                        The relevant bit is in Golgotha 9:

                        Originally posted by The Testament of Longinus
                        Do not put your faith in base rituals, hoping for miraculous doings. Such gifts as we are given are given by God alone, not through formulae and blasphemous incantations.
                        As one of the commentators on the new scholarly edition put it:

                        Originally posted by Dr Ballsden's commentary
                        This sentence has been crossed out in the original.
                        (Have I mentioned I love the Testament, as in the OOC book? It very much reads like an actual scholarly edition of a classical text.)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by marin View Post
                          However, Requiem 2e gives a different account: Amoniel leads Daniel alone to a cavern under Thebes where he finds Strange Magic Things, which he records and passes onto the others.
                          Oh, good point. I'd forgotten that. (Though I'd probably have both stories be attested in-universe.)

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                          • #14
                            Very interesting. That further supports the notion that "Amoniel" is not actually an angel. And since Longinus hasn't made a return to correct the Church on their stance on Theban Sorcery, it's likely that he's either dead or isolated from rest of Kindred society.


                            Bloodline: The Stygians
                            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                            • #15
                              It may be worth remembering that the Pledge to the Worthless One is listed as a Theban Rite....

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