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  • #31
    VtR was created to fix the problems with VtM. Namely, the extremely complicated and stupid metaplot.

    Make it up yourself, that's why everything is left ambiguous.

    Addendum: after reading posts after the OP's, it seems people are falling into the same behavior of arguing "canon" that we all know ruined VtM.

    Why? This is fiction. A polite description for a lie. Why do you people argue as if it is fact?

    This is how cults and religions are born.
    Last edited by Illuminostro; 11-06-2019, 12:21 AM.

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    • #32
      Oh, I'm sorry if my posts came across that way—I absolutely don't intend anything I say to be taken as canon. If anything, it's meant to cast more doubt on what PCs think they know!

      I like having (and posting) all sorts of contradictory evidence that points to the G-M, the Empyrean, the Exarchs, the Principle, the Unchained, the Great Covenant, etc, because it's all fuel for PCs to hold different and mutually exclusive beliefs without anyone being Objectively Right. (And because e.g. a Lancea schismatic who believes Theban is the work of Satan leading the Sanctified astray from their true path sounds like a fun plot hook.)

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      • #33
        Illuminostro I LIKE metaplot. And crossover stuff like making Amoniel a Supernal entity. Makes it more like reading one giant novel that me and my friends can interact with.

        And religion is a good thing. Blessed be ❤️ (Wiccan blessing).


        It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done... Sidney Carton’s last line before he goes to the guillotine to save Lucie

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Illuminostro View Post
          VtR was created to fix the problems with VtM. Namely, the extremely complicated and stupid metaplot.

          Make it up yourself, that's why everything is left ambiguous.

          Addendum: after reading posts after the OP's, it seems people are falling into the same behavior of arguing "canon" that we all know ruined VtM.

          Why? This is fiction. A polite description for a lie. Why do you people argue as if it is fact?

          This is how cults and religions are born.
          1.) It's not metaplot that moves the setting forward; it's backstory that fleshes out elements of the setting.

          2.) Despite everything being technically optional, it's mostly written to follow a single backstory with any consistencies or ambiguities being chalked up to it not being known in-setting. That's why multiple books reference the same in-setting historical events, often expanding on them in new ways by revealing new information.

          3.) I already know CofD/VtR is supposed to be a toolbox choose-your-own-parts-to-include style game. Of everything I've argued basically nothing has shown up in our games because it hasn't fit what we've been going for.

          4.) People have argued fiction since fiction was invented. It's part of the fun so don't try to police that.
          Last edited by Tessie; 11-06-2019, 06:46 AM.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
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          • #35
            Within Vampire, it's the gift of divine beings who have never revealed themselves to other creatures, of whom mortal tradition speaks but who cannot be verified to have spoken to anyone but Kindred. The angels of damnation are the true angels and the saints of the Kindred are the true saints. That's where I fell on a canon explanation.

            For crossover fun, though, it's the gift of God-Machine's angels, and the entire tradition of occultism among the Kindred is a self-perpetuating hierarchy that exists within the minds of the Damned. Occult traditions are systems, systems are formed of and form machines, and that forms Infrastructure that the Kindred have both taken faithfully and subverted to their own needs.

            Be a shame if it caught something contagious.


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            • #36
              It's a bit off-topic, but Rose post pointed to me on the topic of interpretation of God in Vampire gameline canon. Last days I read After the Fall - i.e. Fall of Constantinopole Dark Eras setting - and there is described history of the Vlad Dracula - his life and his canonical change into vampire. What is a bit distasteful to me, it's pointing that all the important role of the God in Dracula life is directly pointed as God Machine machinations - even his curse. Even when 1E materials - like Ordo Dracul book - where much more open to interpretation with what, exactly, Dracula were fighting with. We have similar thing now with 'angels' of Lancea Sanctum. I understand that gameline is promoting God Machine as having real effect on the grand CoD setting - but forcing G-M as always answer for the God intervention in game is doing disservice to both actual Judeo-Christian believes AND CoD grander setting. CoD was all about MYSTERY, not 'it's all G-M machinations'.


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              • #37
                Rose Bailey LOL (the last sentence)


                It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done... Sidney Carton’s last line before he goes to the guillotine to save Lucie

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                  What is a bit distasteful to me, it's pointing that all the important role of the God in Dracula life is directly pointed as God Machine machinations - even his curse.
                  That's the one thing that was ambiguous. The God-Machine is directly named previously in the same text but at the end it's just "God".

                  Edit: Also, it's never stated what cursed Dracula, only that he interpreted the enemy as God.
                  Last edited by Tessie; 11-06-2019, 02:25 PM.


                  Bloodline: The Stygians
                  Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                  Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                    It's a bit off-topic, but Rose post pointed to me on the topic of interpretation of God in Vampire gameline canon. Last days I read After the Fall - i.e. Fall of Constantinopole Dark Eras setting - and there is described history of the Vlad Dracula - his life and his canonical change into vampire. What is a bit distasteful to me, it's pointing that all the important role of the God in Dracula life is directly pointed as God Machine machinations - even his curse. Even when 1E materials - like Ordo Dracul book - where much more open to interpretation with what, exactly, Dracula were fighting with. We have similar thing now with 'angels' of Lancea Sanctum. I understand that gameline is promoting God Machine as having real effect on the grand CoD setting - but forcing G-M as always answer for the God intervention in game is doing disservice to both actual Judeo-Christian believes AND CoD grander setting. CoD was all about MYSTERY, not 'it's all G-M machinations'.
                    Surely this is the agenda of the gameline in general. It absolutely has nothing to do with the fact After The Fall is a Demon-focused Dark Era that happens to include the historical figure the literary Dracula was inspired by. Definitely not. There's a conspiracy afoot.


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                    • #40
                      God and angels aren't always the God-Machine. But the God-Machine is a strange set of phenomena that people didn't even have the idiom to describe until the industrial age, so it's been interpreted as divine or demonic a lot. As such, it makes a good vector for crossover.

                      It's also possible that every hierarchical system is Infrastructure, even if that Infrastructure isn't built or manipulated by the God-Machine. That suggests that structure is an underlying attribute of the World of Darkness, and that the patterns that emerge are not fully coincidental. But so many things in the Darkness are driven by emotional investment, which in turn implies that emotional investment is what defines Infrastructure, and the God-Machine may not be as dispassionate as you'd otherwise believe.

                      It's a really fun rabbit hole.

                      Back on topic, the need to provide crossover compatibility does create some problems. Vampire takes place in a little island of streetlight in a vast, shadowy landscape. There's no Vampire theory of how the universe was created or what life for non-vampires

                      VtR2 was developed from the perspective that vampires' perception that they were dealing with the divine was at least part of the truth. I've never much liked the idea that Vampire's divine influences are "just" anything. If you can define the Longinian angels in terms of another game, I think they've got to be spectacular examples of that line. You could say they're "just" spirits, but how many spirits are capable of introducing an entirely new kind of sorcery into the world?


                      Cavaliers of Mars Creator
                      Retired CofD Lead

                      Check out my guides to Vampire and my indie games!

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Rose Bailey View Post
                        God and angels aren't always the God-Machine. But the God-Machine is a strange set of phenomena that people didn't even have the idiom to describe until the industrial age, so it's been interpreted as divine or demonic a lot. As such, it makes a good vector for crossover.

                        It's also possible that every hierarchical system is Infrastructure, even if that Infrastructure isn't built or manipulated by the God-Machine. That suggests that structure is an underlying attribute of the World of Darkness, and that the patterns that emerge are not fully coincidental. But so many things in the Darkness are driven by emotional investment, which in turn implies that emotional investment is what defines Infrastructure, and the God-Machine may not be as dispassionate as you'd otherwise believe.

                        It's a really fun rabbit hole.

                        Back on topic, the need to provide crossover compatibility does create some problems. Vampire takes place in a little island of streetlight in a vast, shadowy landscape. There's no Vampire theory of how the universe was created or what life for non-vampires

                        VtR2 was developed from the perspective that vampires' perception that they were dealing with the divine was at least part of the truth. I've never much liked the idea that Vampire's divine influences are "just" anything. If you can define the Longinian angels in terms of another game, I think they've got to be spectacular examples of that line. You could say they're "just" spirits, but how many spirits are capable of introducing an entirely new kind of sorcery into the world?
                        Ones who know where to find the place whomever actually made that sorcery wrote it down, given that it was found on the walls of an ancient Egyptian tomb or a cave wall or something. It doesn't take much!
                        Last edited by Aiden; 11-07-2019, 08:39 AM.


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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Rose Bailey View Post
                          You could say they're "just" spirits, but how many spirits are capable of introducing an entirely new kind of sorcery into the world?
                          Don’t know, how many influence 8 spirits are there?

                          Originally posted by Rose Bailey View Post
                          That suggests that structure is an underlying attribute of the World of Darkness, and that the patterns that emerge are not fully coincidental.
                          World of Darkness you say? Clearly we should over analyse this instead, the mysteries of holy vampire magic can wait. 😉
                          Last edited by Live Bait; 11-07-2019, 04:04 PM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Live Bait View Post

                            Don’t know, how many influence 8 spirits are there?
                            Not a lot, that's for sure


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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
                              World of Darkness you say? Clearly we should over analyse this instead, the mysteries of holy vampire magic can wait. 😉
                              One of the nice things about being retired is that I can still throw around "World" and "nWoD" without worrying about annoying a licensor.


                              Cavaliers of Mars Creator
                              Retired CofD Lead

                              Check out my guides to Vampire and my indie games!

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                              • #45
                                In the spirit of being retired, I always considered that the writings Amoniel led the vampires to... Were Utterances.


                                Dave Brookshaw

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