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Origins of Theban Sorcery?

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  • Penelope
    started a topic Origins of Theban Sorcery?

    Origins of Theban Sorcery?

    What do you think of the idea of the angel Amoniel who taught Longinus the secrets of Theban Sorcery being a Supernal entity from the Aether? I read in Imperial Mysteries that the old gods of myth were actually beings from the Supernal Realms, and angels are kinda like gods...

  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by LostLight View Post
    I'm also kinda surprised that unless I missed something, no one has mentioned a possible connection between the Tremere and the Theban. Perhaps Theban Sorcery is the outcome of vampires connecting to the lost/fallen/betrayed Watchtower/Oracle/Dragon of Blood, and that after its fall only vampires can access its magic- but they need to maintain their soul in order to channel its magic.
    You mean betweeen the Theban (who's part of the Tremere backstory in Mage) and Theban Sorcery. That they share name is mentioned as an intentional potential connection and plot hook in a side bar in Left-Hand Path. Tremere is also connected to Strix (mentioned as breath-drinkers) and VII in similar ways.
    It's honestly quite difficult to theorise what the connection is because the Theban is only described through an unreliable in-setting document, as well as lack of overlapping themes between Theban Sorcery and the Tremere. You mention the health of a vampire's soul, but applying what's known about the soul from mage, vampires shouldn't even have one (at least not their original, the Embrace should either remove the need for a soul or fill the need with something else). The rationale presented in VtR core for the Humanity prerequisite is about having to be clearminded and calm, which ties in with the fact that TS uses Academics rather than Occult in the dice pool.

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  • LostLight
    replied
    I'm also kinda surprised that unless I missed something, no one has mentioned a possible connection between the Tremere and the Theban. Perhaps Theban Sorcery is the outcome of vampires connecting to the lost/fallen/betrayed Watchtower/Oracle/Dragon of Blood, and that after its fall only vampires can access its magic- but they need to maintain their soul in order to channel its magic.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aiden
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
    In the spirit of being retired, I always considered that the writings Amoniel led the vampires to... Were Utterances.
    Seems legit to me.

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  • Khanwulf
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
    In the spirit of being retired, I always considered that the writings Amoniel led the vampires to... Were Utterances.

    Utterances ... written down? Did the "angel" show the way to the Nameless Empire bathroom complex and the vamp in question jotted down stall graffiti?

    Regardless, if Theban Sorcery is linked to utterances, then it's been quite watered down by not being channeled through a being powered by the Rite of Return! I... known little about Mummy, but stuff like this is damn terrifying!


    --Khanwulf

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  • Khanwulf
    replied
    Originally posted by Aiden View Post

    Ones who know where to find the place whomever actually made that sorcery wrote it down, given that it was found on the walls of an ancient Egyptian tomb or a cave wall or something. It doesn't take much!

    I'm suddenly and inexplicable left wondering if there are other caves decorated with even more primitive forms of "Theban" sorcery out there? Perhaps decorated with handprints and hunting scenes in the mountains of France?

    Oh, what a spelunking Kindred might discover?

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  • Penelope
    replied
    Never mind. Looked it up. Awesome!

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  • Penelope
    replied
    Dave Brookshaw what’s an Utterance?

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  • Dave Brookshaw
    replied
    In the spirit of being retired, I always considered that the writings Amoniel led the vampires to... Were Utterances.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rose Bailey
    replied
    Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
    World of Darkness you say? Clearly we should over analyse this instead, the mysteries of holy vampire magic can wait. 😉
    One of the nice things about being retired is that I can still throw around "World" and "nWoD" without worrying about annoying a licensor.

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  • LostLight
    replied
    Originally posted by Live Bait View Post

    Don’t know, how many influence 8 spirits are there?
    Not a lot, that's for sure

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  • Live Bait
    replied
    Originally posted by Rose Bailey View Post
    You could say they're "just" spirits, but how many spirits are capable of introducing an entirely new kind of sorcery into the world?
    Don’t know, how many influence 8 spirits are there?

    Originally posted by Rose Bailey View Post
    That suggests that structure is an underlying attribute of the World of Darkness, and that the patterns that emerge are not fully coincidental.
    World of Darkness you say? Clearly we should over analyse this instead, the mysteries of holy vampire magic can wait. 😉
    Last edited by Live Bait; 11-07-2019, 04:04 PM.

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  • Aiden
    replied
    Originally posted by Rose Bailey View Post
    God and angels aren't always the God-Machine. But the God-Machine is a strange set of phenomena that people didn't even have the idiom to describe until the industrial age, so it's been interpreted as divine or demonic a lot. As such, it makes a good vector for crossover.

    It's also possible that every hierarchical system is Infrastructure, even if that Infrastructure isn't built or manipulated by the God-Machine. That suggests that structure is an underlying attribute of the World of Darkness, and that the patterns that emerge are not fully coincidental. But so many things in the Darkness are driven by emotional investment, which in turn implies that emotional investment is what defines Infrastructure, and the God-Machine may not be as dispassionate as you'd otherwise believe.

    It's a really fun rabbit hole.

    Back on topic, the need to provide crossover compatibility does create some problems. Vampire takes place in a little island of streetlight in a vast, shadowy landscape. There's no Vampire theory of how the universe was created or what life for non-vampires

    VtR2 was developed from the perspective that vampires' perception that they were dealing with the divine was at least part of the truth. I've never much liked the idea that Vampire's divine influences are "just" anything. If you can define the Longinian angels in terms of another game, I think they've got to be spectacular examples of that line. You could say they're "just" spirits, but how many spirits are capable of introducing an entirely new kind of sorcery into the world?
    Ones who know where to find the place whomever actually made that sorcery wrote it down, given that it was found on the walls of an ancient Egyptian tomb or a cave wall or something. It doesn't take much!
    Last edited by Aiden; 11-07-2019, 08:39 AM.

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  • Rose Bailey
    replied
    God and angels aren't always the God-Machine. But the God-Machine is a strange set of phenomena that people didn't even have the idiom to describe until the industrial age, so it's been interpreted as divine or demonic a lot. As such, it makes a good vector for crossover.

    It's also possible that every hierarchical system is Infrastructure, even if that Infrastructure isn't built or manipulated by the God-Machine. That suggests that structure is an underlying attribute of the World of Darkness, and that the patterns that emerge are not fully coincidental. But so many things in the Darkness are driven by emotional investment, which in turn implies that emotional investment is what defines Infrastructure, and the God-Machine may not be as dispassionate as you'd otherwise believe.

    It's a really fun rabbit hole.

    Back on topic, the need to provide crossover compatibility does create some problems. Vampire takes place in a little island of streetlight in a vast, shadowy landscape. There's no Vampire theory of how the universe was created or what life for non-vampires

    VtR2 was developed from the perspective that vampires' perception that they were dealing with the divine was at least part of the truth. I've never much liked the idea that Vampire's divine influences are "just" anything. If you can define the Longinian angels in terms of another game, I think they've got to be spectacular examples of that line. You could say they're "just" spirits, but how many spirits are capable of introducing an entirely new kind of sorcery into the world?

    Leave a comment:


  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    It's a bit off-topic, but Rose post pointed to me on the topic of interpretation of God in Vampire gameline canon. Last days I read After the Fall - i.e. Fall of Constantinopole Dark Eras setting - and there is described history of the Vlad Dracula - his life and his canonical change into vampire. What is a bit distasteful to me, it's pointing that all the important role of the God in Dracula life is directly pointed as God Machine machinations - even his curse. Even when 1E materials - like Ordo Dracul book - where much more open to interpretation with what, exactly, Dracula were fighting with. We have similar thing now with 'angels' of Lancea Sanctum. I understand that gameline is promoting God Machine as having real effect on the grand CoD setting - but forcing G-M as always answer for the God intervention in game is doing disservice to both actual Judeo-Christian believes AND CoD grander setting. CoD was all about MYSTERY, not 'it's all G-M machinations'.
    Surely this is the agenda of the gameline in general. It absolutely has nothing to do with the fact After The Fall is a Demon-focused Dark Era that happens to include the historical figure the literary Dracula was inspired by. Definitely not. There's a conspiracy afoot.

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