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  • Twice-Cursed Variants

    This was a little something I considered tossing on STV, but it's not really enough for a full product, and what goes for the Twice-Cursed in Spilled Blood pretty much goes for these ones. Also, this is not developed text, or official, just my musings. So, without further ado:

    Twice-Cursed Variants

    Unless stated otherwise, these Twice-Cursed vampires follow the same rules/restrictions as the Stalkers, but relating to their own “parent” clans, i.e., unique Disciplines are more expensive, and they do not create revenants (though they can Embrace them). See Night Horrors: Spilled Blood, p. 102.

    Gangrel/Nosferatu are not included: These vampires have transcended their curse and now serve the Ordo Dracul as the Moroi bloodline. Or so some believe.

    Daeva/Gangrel: The Killers
    • Killers gain Kiss of the Succubus and Pack Alpha for free at character creation.
    • A Killer can only Embrace humans of Integrity 3 or lower. This carries over to their Humanity trait.
    Clan Bane (The Pathological Curse): Killers gain both the Daeva and Gangrel banes at Humanity 6.

    Favored Attributes: Dexterity and Stamina

    Disciplines: Celerity, Resilience, Vigor

    Daeva/Ventrue: The Unloved
    • Unloved gain Distinguished Palate and Kiss of the Succubus for free at character creation.
    • An Unloved can only Embrace a former ghouls, but not those they made themselves.
    Clan Bane (The Hot-and-Cold Curse): Unloved gain both the Daeva and Ventrue banes at Humanity 6.

    Favored Attributes: Manipulation and Presence

    Disciplines: Animalism, Resilience, Vigor

    Gangrel/Mekhet: The Cryptids
    • Cryptids gain Dream Visions and Pack Alpha for free at character creation.
    • A Cryptid can only Embrace Wolf-Blooded.
    Nickname: Cryptids

    Clan Bane (The Monstrous Curse): Hunters gain both the Gangrel and Mekhet banes at Humanity 6.

    Favored Attributes: Composure and Wits

    Disciplines: Animalism, Celerity, Resilience

    Gangrel/Ventrue: The Cruel
    • Cruel gain Distinguished Palate and Pack Alpha for free at character creation.
    • The Cruel cannot Embrace except to uplift revenants.
    Clan Bane (The Heartless Curse): The Cruel gain both the Gangrel and Ventrue banes at Humanity 6.

    Favored Attributes: Resolve and Stamina

    Disciplines: Animalism and Resilience; player chooses a third Discipline from Celerity, Obfuscate, or Vigor

    Mekhet/Ventrue: The Witches
    • Witches gain Dream Visions and Distinguished Palate for free at character creation.
    • A Witch can only Embrace humans with supernatural powers, such as psychics, telepaths, aura readers, and the like. The Embrace snuffs out these abilities.
    Clan Bane (The Occulted Curse): Witches gain both the Mekhet and Ventrue banes at Humanity 6.

    Favored Attributes: Intelligence and Presence

    Disciplines: Animalism, Obfuscate, Resilience

    Nosferatu/Ventrue: The Magisters
    • Magisters gain Distinguished Palate and Unsettling Gaze for free at character creation.
    • A Magister can only Embrace humans of Integrity 10. This does not carry over to Humanity.
    Clan Bane (The Lodestone Curse): Magisters gain both the Nosferatu and Ventrue banes at Humanity 6.

    Favored Attributes: Composure and Resolve

    Disciplines: Obfuscate, Resilience, Vigor
    Last edited by Yossarian; 02-13-2020, 04:45 PM.



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  • #2
    Would you describe the Licinii as a Twice Cursed of the Julii and the Nosferatu reaching a stable bloodline state? Or the Norvegi as the outcome of a Mekhet/Grettir hybrid? And what about strange cases, such as the Canda Bhanu and the Macellarius where there was a certain transition in Blood (like the Julii/Ventrue consuming the Mekhet Bloodline or the Macellarius changing from Julii into Venture)? And could it be that the Jiang Shi have been a Twice Cursed of the Hollow Mekhet and the Gangrel/Ventrue/Pijavicia/Some Clan from Spilled Blood which I have bought just before I went to sleep so I haven't read much of it?

    Sorry for all of the questions, but I just think that the concept for the Twice Damned is a very cool example for the evolution of the Blood and such.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by LostLight View Post
      Would you describe the Licinii as a Twice Cursed of the Julii and the Nosferatu reaching a stable bloodline state? Or the Norvegi as the outcome of a Mekhet/Grettir hybrid? And what about strange cases, such as the Canda Bhanu and the Macellarius where there was a certain transition in Blood (like the Julii/Ventrue consuming the Mekhet Bloodline or the Macellarius changing from Julii into Venture)? And could it be that the Jiang Shi have been a Twice Cursed of the Hollow Mekhet and the Gangrel/Ventrue/Pijavicia/Some Clan from Spilled Blood which I have bought just before I went to sleep so I haven't read much of it?

      Sorry for all of the questions, but I just think that the concept for the Twice Damned is a very cool example for the evolution of the Blood and such.
      So, something I tried to hint at in the book is that the term "Twice-Cursed" is kind of a deceptive label. It's what Kindred call the phenomena, but it's not quite accurate. Or rather, it's too easy. Mechanically, Stalkers have the same banes as two clans, but in-world it's more like they have a similar effect on people as the Daeva and Nosferatu, not precisely the same thing. They're not as good at developing Majesty and Nightmare, but note that they have somewhat more elemental versions of those powers baked right in (i.e., the Merits they get at character creation).

      The answer I favor (and this is headcanon; the truth is whatever you want it to be), is that Twice-Cursed are what dead, blood drinking monsters were before they started becoming clans, some murky step between revenant and true Kindred. The oldest myths of vampires resemble Twice-Cursed: repulsive corpses who are compelled to haunt and feed from the people they love.

      All of that being said, I wouldn't quite describe any of your examples as Twice-Cursed, because they all have access to at least one unique Discipline...except the Jiang-Shi. I could see the Jiang Shi being some kind of Hollow Mekhet meets Gangrel thing.

      Edit: And note that the Twice-Cursed already seem to be becoming more like Kindred. The ones from Rhode Island seemed to exude their banes as soon as they died. Tonight, they're more like normal Kindred, and have to let it set in as their Humanities degrade.
      Last edited by Yossarian; 02-13-2020, 06:11 AM.



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      • #4
        What is the reasoning between Magisters only being able to embrace Integrity10?
        Why do it not carry over to humanity?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Yossarian View Post

          So, something I tried to hint at in the book is that the term "Twice-Cursed" is kind of a deceptive label. It's what Kindred call the phenomena, but it's not quite accurate. Or rather, it's too easy. Mechanically, Stalkers have the same banes as two clans, but in-world it's more like they have a similar effect on people as the Daeva and Nosferatu, not precisely the same thing. They're not as good at developing Majesty and Nightmare, but note that they have somewhat more elemental versions of those powers baked right in (i.e., the Merits they get at character creation).

          The answer I favor (and this is headcanon; the truth is whatever you want it to be), is that Twice-Cursed are what dead, blood drinking monsters were before they started becoming clans, some murky step between revenant and true Kindred. The oldest myths of vampires resemble Twice-Cursed: repulsive corpses who are compelled to haunt and feed from the people they love.

          All of that being said, I wouldn't quite describe any of your examples as Twice-Cursed, because they all have access to at least one unique Discipline...except the Jiang-Shi. I could see the Jiang Shi being some kind of Hollow Mekhet meets Gangrel thing.

          Edit: And note that the Twice-Cursed already seem to be becoming more like Kindred. The ones from Rhode Island seemed to exude their banes as soon as they died. Tonight, they're more like normal Kindred, and have to let it set in as their Humanities degrade.
          That's interesting! So you are saying that a bloodline such as the Les Gens Libres (which is the only one but the Moroi that I could find without having a unique Discipline) is more likely to have been originally a Twice Cursed until their Blood has more or less stabilized towards the more dominant Gangrel? (the other two Disciplines seems to point towards a Mekhet mixing their Vitae into the bloodline, which I can see happening, especially if it was a part of the experiment used to track them down using Blood Compasses or something)


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          • #6
            I hope you don't mind me asking silly questions here, but I noticed that they have two favored attributes with an *and*, which I take it to mean they receive a dot of both at character creation. This is the correct interpretation, right?

            And as an offshoot, sometimes bloodlines have different favored attributes than their parent clans. What is the interpretation of that? Because it seems like favored attributes don't mean anything after character creation, but you can't take on a bloodline at character creation.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Kvark View Post
              I hope you don't mind me asking silly questions here, but I noticed that they have two favored attributes with an *and*, which I take it to mean they receive a dot of both at character creation. This is the correct interpretation, right?

              And as an offshoot, sometimes bloodlines have different favored attributes than their parent clans. What is the interpretation of that? Because it seems like favored attributes don't mean anything after character creation, but you can't take on a bloodline at character creation.
              The “and” indicates you take both. Twice-Cursed have some edges here and there.

              And bloodline Favored Attributes are only for character creation (unless I’m misremembering something). You actually can take a bloodline at character creation, you just have to have a sire with the same one (the Blood Potency restriction is much looser in 2E, and you don’t spend permanent Willpower anymore). A sire with the same bloodline is an easy enough concept to go with, provided the ST is okay with it. If you joined a bloodline later, you wouldn’t get the Attribute boost again.



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              • #8
                Just checking: was leaving out Daeva/Mekhet and Mekhet/Nosferatu intentional?


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by marin View Post
                  Just checking: was leaving out Daeva/Mekhet and Mekhet/Nosferatu intentional?
                  I wrote these quite a while ago, but I think my reasoning was that their power spread was a little too similar to the Twice-Cursed in the book. Looking back on it, I should just add them in, because it's the curse combination that's kind of the point of it. I'll work on that.



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                  • #10
                    One option you could use, one that admittedly would move a slight bit away from the original concept, is that some of the combinations actually manifest a different third Common Discipline for reasons unclear. This of course edges closer to Bloodline territory again, but it would solve the issue of too much Discipline spread overlap. Even when this new spread overlaps with a different Clan combination, the different Curses, Attributes and Merits would still differentiate them.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by saibot View Post
                      One option you could use, one that admittedly would move a slight bit away from the original concept, is that some of the combinations actually manifest a different third Common Discipline for reasons unclear. This of course edges closer to Bloodline territory again, but it would solve the issue of too much Discipline spread overlap. Even when this new spread overlaps with a different Clan combination, the different Curses, Attributes and Merits would still differentiate them.
                      Social wetness 😂

                      Sorry

                      Seriously, you’re very polite

                      Yossarian doesn’t that mean that eventually each Twice-Cursed bloodline would eventually be made up only of Kindred who in life met the criteria to be Embraced (like the Cryptids would be all former Wolf-Blooded)?


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by saibot View Post
                        One option you could use, one that admittedly would move a slight bit away from the original concept, is that some of the combinations actually manifest a different third Common Discipline for reasons unclear. This of course edges closer to Bloodline territory again, but it would solve the issue of too much Discipline spread overlap. Even when this new spread overlaps with a different Clan combination, the different Curses, Attributes and Merits would still differentiate them.
                        That's a really good idea. It maybe does get a little into bloodline territory, but then again, by it's nature, the concept is intended to be a big question mark in terms of what they really are. I could imagine, for example, the Daeva/Ventrue ones manifesting Obfuscate instead of Animalism.

                        Originally posted by Penelope View Post

                        Yossarian doesn’t that mean that eventually each Twice-Cursed bloodline would eventually be made up only of Kindred who in life met the criteria to be Embraced (like the Cryptids would be all former Wolf-Blooded)?
                        Not necessarily. They can uplift revenants (though they can't spawn them), and those can be anyone.



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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Penelope View Post

                          Social wetness 😂

                          Sorry

                          Seriously, you’re very polite
                          Oh, I do like things wet, regardless.

                          Originally posted by Yossarian View Post

                          That's a really good idea. It maybe does get a little into bloodline territory, but then again, by it's nature, the concept is intended to be a big question mark in terms of what they really are. I could imagine, for example, the Daeva/Ventrue ones manifesting Obfuscate instead of Animalism.
                          That is pretty much what I was getting at. If you combine the themes of two Clans, sometimes this may end up suggesting a Common Discipline that neither "parent Clan" possesses, but the thematic venn diagram of those Clans (or "penumbras") synthesize well into a specific Common Discipline.


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                          • #14
                            Touché 😂

                            Anyway, I wonder why the Moroi are different. Why are they the only Twice-Cursed variant to transcend their Curse and become a regular bloodline?
                            Last edited by Penelope; 10-19-2020, 01:05 PM.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                              Touché 😂. My bad.

                              Anyway, I wonder why the Moroi are different. Why are they the only Twice-Cursed variant to transcend their Curse and become a regular bloodline?
                              Why indeed.

                              The Moroi connection is mostly just speculation (it's as true as you want it to be), but it served the purpose of A) making the Moroi canon in Second Edition, and B) putting lie to that silly sidebar in Ordo Dracul insisting that they're not really the same bloodline, just two bloodlines that are exactly the same in every single way imaginable.



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