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What is the difference between Caitiff in VtM and revenants in VtR?

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  • What is the difference between Caitiff in VtM and revenants in VtR?

    Are they both clanless Kindred?

    Also, is Dracula a revenant in VTR 2e?


    “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

  • #2
    Caitiff only means Clanless. While most are also thinblooded, there's no inherent drawbacks in being just Clanless except for no in-Clan Disciplines but that's compensated through having an easier time learning or developing new Disciplines. (They also have no Clan structure, but that's a political thing.)

    Thinbloods, which is probably what you're actually wondering about, are Kindred whose blood is so diluted that they're almost in a halfway state between Kindred and human. Their blood (what we would call Vitae) is less potent than that of regular Kindred.
    In VtR, imagine if you scaled down most drawbacks as if they had BP0, but also removed things like addictive Vitae and blood bonds. I think they're all Caitiff as well, though.

    Revenants are Clanless, but their main thing is being extra cursed through an incomplete Embrace. While they are somewhat similar to Thinbloods, the point is not that their Embrace was less effective due to their sire having diluted blood, leaving them closer to being human; it's that their Embrace was incomplete, leaving a broken vampire who can't hold their Vitae. They're just as inhuman as regular Kindred, though, and generally on a fast track to low Humanity due to their circumstances.

    Dracula (and Longinus) might've been Clanless, but they absolutely wouldn't be Revenants. They have none of those drawbacks, as far as can be understood through their respective texts. In VtM terms they'd be called Caitiffs but not Thinbloods.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by Tessie View Post
      I think they're all Caitiff as well, though.
      This is part of the confusion with how VtM uses the term Caitiff. Caitiff is both a mechanical term and an in-universe term that don't have the same exact meaning.

      You described, mechanically, what a Caitiff is fine. But in-universe, a Caitiff is any vampire sired from a Clan that's not recognized as a member of that Clan. Thin-bloods (at least pre-V5 which fairly radically changed how Thin-bloods work) default to being Clan vampires mechanically, but most are politically rendered Caitiff to avoid sullying the Clan's reputation. Thin-bloods in pre-V5 are also possible at any Generation, just increasingly more common at the highest Generations (something that also shifts over time, as back when 11th and 12th Generation vampires were considered high, the 13th Generation was rife with Thin-bloods, but in modern nights it's the 14th and 15th Generations that see the most Thin-bloods and the 13th is where the 12th used to be). This trend is true of those mechanically Caitiff as well, leading to the conflation of Caitiff, Thin-blood, and high Generation as all being the same thing.

      The difference between all that and Revanants still stands though.


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      • #4
        In VtM, thinbloods are (usually) halfway between alive and full-vampire. They have fewer powers and fewer weaknesses, have permanent Blush of Life, can (sometimes) walk in the sun, and can even have children with humans.

        In VtR, revenants are halfway between dead and full-vampire. They have fewer powers and more weaknesses, losing all their vitae every night and frenzying a lot.

        In VtM, it's often better to be a thinblood than a full vampire. In VtR, it's much better to be a full vampire than a revenant.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Draconis View Post
          In VtM, thinbloods are (usually) halfway between alive and full-vampire. They have fewer powers and fewer weaknesses, have permanent Blush of Life, can (sometimes) walk in the sun, and can even have children with humans.

          In VtR, revenants are halfway between dead and full-vampire. They have fewer powers and more weaknesses, losing all their vitae every night and frenzying a lot.

          In VtM, it's often better to be a thinblood than a full vampire. In VtR, it's much better to be a full vampire than a revenant.
          Thank you. That makes a lot of sense.


          “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

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