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Other supernaturals as Ghouls?

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  • Other supernaturals as Ghouls?

    I could not find an existing thread on this topic so I started my own.

    How feasible is it for vampires to make a Blood Bond with other supernatural creatures? The rules state that doing it to other vampires is fair game as long as they fail their Blood Potency defense against it. So how would it work with Werewolves, Mages, Sin Eaters etc, apart from them getting the chance to resist as well with their power stats? Could they keep their own supernatural abilities as well as using vampire disciplines and other Ghoul abilities?

  • #2
    First a note to avoid confusion: Being blood bond and being a ghoul are not the same thing. A ghoul is made through a specific act of will when a mortal drinks a vampire's Vitae and the new ghoul gets some supernatural advantages out of it, as per the book. This also means that one can become blood bond from drinking a vampire's Vitae without that investment of will and therefore become blood bond without becoming a ghoul. A ghoul is usually on some level of blood bond, but actually does not have to be (for example, a rogue ghoul who has destroyed their original regent).

    Can other supernaturals become ghouls? The books are pretty clear that this is a "No" in the default setting.

    Can other supernaturals become blood-bonded? Yes, according to the FAQ for Requiem you can find in this thread: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...al-stats-index
    What is not clear is whether other supernaturals can use their own Supernatural Power Traits to resist the blood bond like vampires can. Some supernaturals may also have other ways to at least mitigate the effects of the blood bond, but the details are up to the Storyteller.


    Politeness is the lubricant of social intercourse.

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    • #3
      Blood bonding works normally on supernatural creatures, that can use their power stats to resist.
      Ghouling is a separate process, that require the vampire to spend a willpower point while giving the blood.
      I m not sure but i think that only creatures with integrity and no power stats can become ghouls

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Neos01 View Post
        Blood bonding works normally on supernatural creatures, that can use their power stats to resist.
        Do you happen to have a source for that? Thanks in advance!


        Politeness is the lubricant of social intercourse.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by saibot View Post
          Do you happen to have a source for that? Thanks in advance!
          This is a general rule across all the games. Anything that calls on a power stat, other splats substitutes that trait with their own power stat.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Tessie View Post

            This is a general rule across all the games. Anything that calls on a power stat, other splats substitutes that trait with their own power stat.
            At least in the Vampire core book this rule only seems to show up for how to determine Clash of Wills dice pools and for dice pools to contest Disciplines and Devotions ("Supernatural Conflict" and "Clash of Wills", both on p. 125). I could not find an entry saying it should always be replaced, no matter the circumstance, but maybe I am missing something? That is why I asked for a reference.


            Politeness is the lubricant of social intercourse.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by saibot View Post

              At least in the Vampire core book this rule only seems to show up for how to determine Clash of Wills dice pools and for dice pools to contest Disciplines and Devotions ("Supernatural Conflict" and "Clash of Wills", both on p. 125). I could not find an entry saying it should always be replaced, no matter the circumstance, but maybe I am missing something? That is why I asked for a reference.
              Pag 171 of vampire core, the resistance paragraph
              Or pag 70 of the chronicle of darkness core

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              • #8
                The exact phrasing changes from game to game. You're right in that Vampire only says to use other traits for contested rolls for Disciplines. Meanwhile Changeling says that you should use the Supernatural Potency or Supernatural Tolerance trait any time the rules call for Wyrd. Very different wordings (and implications) from what's supposed to be the same rule in both games. Consistency is not CofD's strongest suite.


                Bloodline: The Stygians
                Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                • #9
                  I don't know that the rule has been explicitly stated in 2e, but in nWoD (before it became CofD), it was explicitly stated as a design philosophy in one of the books (Second Sight, maybe?) that, by default, templates do not stack, and Major Templates always overwrite Minor Templates. Major being Vampire/Changeling/Mage/etc, and Minor being Ghoul/Wolf-Blooded/Fae-Touched, etc.

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                  • #10
                    When a game says to use its native potency stat (like Blood Potency), but the rule is being applied to another type of monster that has a different potency stat (say Wyrd), substitute that monster's potency stat.

                    For ghouls: we've said or implied in various places that headline monsters can't become ghouls. I retroactively regret that. I suggest that while monster ghouls should be rarer than human ones, monster ghouls should be allowed.

                    The Contagion Chronicle Player's Guide will have a bit about templates and the extent that they are and are not a thing in 2nd edition nWoD/CofD.


                    Cavaliers of Mars Creator
                    Retired CofD Lead

                    Check out my guides to Vampire and my indie games!

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                    • #11
                      In general 2e seems to now be moving away from a blanket "no template mixing allowed" rule.
                      While I understand why it was originally done (Sam Haight et al), I think allowing it to a certain degree is more interesting from the perspective of story potential.


                      Politeness is the lubricant of social intercourse.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by saibot View Post
                        In general 2e seems to now be moving away from a blanket "no template mixing allowed" rule.
                        While I understand why it was originally done (Sam Haight et al), I think allowing it to a certain degree is more interesting from the perspective of story potential.

                        Sam Haight wasn't a good example even back then, because some lots of Ex Machina/handwavium was involved in making events even possible and assuring his survival, at least from Rage Across Amazon onwards.

                        Valkenburg Foundation wasn't bad (except for some blatant railroading) and his VtM adventures ("A Quest Beyond Death" from the Sabbat's ST Handbook and "Djabic" from NObN) are more cameos where he provides some useful info/plot coupon than anything. Damn, in fact one could replacing him with [insert signature NPC of you choice here] and playing them as written with no hiccups and same "hey, i know that guy/lady/etc..." effect. Probably better, as few signature characters are as base-breaking as Sam Haight (with the possible exception of Capone).

                        [Ok, Capone lost in Spirit Realms, trying to contact a Sabbat pack and warn of the incoming lovecraftian cosmic horror from "A Quest Beyond Death"... That i admit would be weird like heck - but might actually be fun to try to pull off because of the sheer weirdness, i guess. Not easy to handwave like Aisling, Anatole, Beckett, Constancia, Hesha, Lucita, Mariana Giovanni or Vykos. ]

                        But Rage Across Amazon was where what could have been the start of a strong WtA plot (Sam exploiting the internecine shapeshifter fighting in the region to expand his pseudo-tribe, the Skin Dancers) went for the most pear-shaped crossover shark-jumping spectacle ever instead.
                        Last edited by Baaldam; 09-22-2020, 09:25 AM.

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